Folsom, CA - Video

[babyhuyx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzYcrBKooBQ
[YOUTUBE]EzYcrBKooBQ[/YOUTUBE]

So this is the video to the crash related to these threads I posted over the weekend.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436768

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436784

Basic gist, 40mph left corner. Went wide and fixated into the guard rail. What puzzled us is what led to the wide corner.... It WASN'T sharp as you can see in the video.


Small fracture on upper spine, but is able to move.
4 broken ribs, one of which punctured his lungs causing it to collapse. They were able to patch and get it inflated.
Nasty skin abrasion on his ankle and knee.
Minor trauma. But he remembers everything, and still wants to ride.

My friend was able to catch the crash with gopro mounted on the tank.
I was 5th (in the back sweeper).

 

[Enchanter]

It looks like the rider entered the turn at a speed above their skill level, target fixated on the guardrail, and then left the road. The rear brake was used too much causing it to lock. It's unclear if the front brake was used properly.

How much experience does the rider have riding? How many miles on this particular motorcycle?

 

[slowblood]

If the crasher remembers everything, what did he say?

BTW, if you are gonna crash, wear some protection on your knee and feet. :[

 

[babyhuyx]

Experience wise I'm not quite sure. It was my friend's classmate's cousin. Yea i know :|

I wasn't too keen on having others I didn't really know (skill-wise) tag along. But wasn't my place to say.

He said he went wide, rear tire slipped, grabbed a handful of front and off he went.

What irked me is that this turn has a larger radius than the freeway on-ramp we took. I'm guessing mental block or something. I dunno. We usually take this turn pretty quick (i mean its a damn 40mph >_>)

 

[canyonrat]

Worw, I've seen such crashes before. Rider is way too inexperienced, and needs mentoring. Dirt might be helpful,a skilled street rider that can train him one-on-one, consider martial arts, perhaps Raja Yoga on the way out there of ideas.

Awareness of internal stuff is clearly what is needed because the external stuff is clearly not difficult.

Best wishes and please forward this to the downed rider.

 

[splat]

Why would your group pull out into traffic, past a stop sign, just to sit in the emergency lane? Just like motorcyclist, drivers target fixate and drift, too.

Also, it looks like he actually target fixated on the car that passed him, tried to stand it upright, and couldn't scrub off enough speed to safely stop (read: didn't have the skills to safely handle the machine). Combine that with the fact that he didn't know basic riding signals, he probably wasn't prepared for any sort of group ride. Parking lot practice is in order if he decides to ride again. Did he just get the bike?

 

[GAJ]

New riders should definitely not take even "easy" turns at 50% above posted speed limit; camera bike showed almost 60mph.

Sure, experienced riders could handle that turn marked at 40mph at 80mph, but new riders should be instructed to really pay attention to those signs.

I tell new riders that the speed limits on signs for turns should be taken seriously and, at the very least, if the sign says 40mph should be in 4th, 30mph should be in 3rd and 20mph should be in second gear so that engine braking can assist in stabilizing the bike.

60mph was above skill level and the rider might have been in 6th due to the "open" nature of the road.

Heal up rider.

Oh, and sneakers with no socks is ridiculous, tell him to get some proper riding boots and, at the very least, Kevlar Jeans.

Did his jacket have a CE Spine Protector in it?

If not, he should definitely get one; they are not expensive.

 

[NorCalNav]

I tell new riders that the speed limits on signs for turns should be taken seriously and, at the very least, if the sign says 40mph should be in 4th, 30mph should be in 3rd and 20mph should be in second gear so that engine braking can assist in stabilizing the bike.

What size bike are we talking here? Pretty noob here, but I ride my SV around shifting in about the 6000 rpm range when riding easy. I'm usually a gear lower than everything you wrote up.. maybe I'm revving too high?

 

[GAJ]

What size bike are we talking here? Pretty noob here, but I ride my SV around shifting in about the 6000 rpm range when riding easy. I'm usually a gear lower than everything you wrote up.. maybe I'm revving too high?

Pretty much works on my DRZ and F800ST, but a gear lower can be fine too for an experienced rider.

I found that newer riders tend to be in too high a gear entering corners as they tend to use the gearbox less than more experienced riders.

When my newish rider friend tried this technique it was a revelation to him as on a marked 30mph turn he was often in fifth if not sixth with very little if any engine braking to be had.

 

[Rwhat]

Also, it looks like he actually target fixated on the car that passed him, tried to stand it upright, and couldn't scrub off enough speed to safely stop (read: didn't have the skills to safely handle the machine). Combine that with the fact that he didn't know basic riding signals, he probably wasn't prepared for any sort of group ride. Parking lot practice is in order if he decides to ride again. Did he just get the bike?

X2 noticed the on coming car seemed to freak him out also.

 

[DirtyD]

There are a couple of skills that the crasher may not be aware of that would help avoid this nasty crash.

One, counter-steer. Leaning your body doesn't really do shit on a big motorcycle at speed. Make sure you never ride with someone who doesn't know the basics of counter-steering. It would be like diving with someone who doesn't know how to clear his regulator. Very basic, but not necessarily something that everyone knows about.

Two, braking while leaned over. Can you accelerate while leaned over? Of course. Well, braking while leaned over is even easier because you can brake with both wheels while you only accelerate with one. If you see yourself going a little wide in a corner, roll out of the throttle. If you're still going wide, apply a little front and rear brake. Not a ton, just a touch. Practice this so that you will understand whether or not your bike wants to stand up while braking. If it does, use a touch of counter-steering to keep the bike turning while braking.

Three, look where you want to go. Don't look at the dirt, look through the turn. It's amazing how much this helps. It pretty much eliminates the panic that can occur when you come into a corner a little hot.

And I agree with what someone else said earlier about stopping in the shoulder while trying to enter traffic. I thought for sure this was where the accident was going to occur. Looked really dangerous. Try not to put yourself inn a situation where a distracted driver could so easily end your life.

 

[babyhuyx]

Personally I pulled out into the lot in front of the farm where the crash occurred. Again as I stated in the op this was my friend's gopro on his bike. But I'll relay the shoulder thing to him.

Regarding the crash, I never noticed the car, good point, was so fixated on the crash from watching the video I blocked the rest of the image.

As for what dirtyd mentioned. You have a valid point as far as leaning goes. However, for me I notice when I lean into a turn, my body automatically reacts and pushes on the handlebars. Not sure if that's a learned reaction or not but I get what your saying. Again, wasn't my friend, I didn't exactly approve of the last minute additional riders. But not my place to say, that's why I insisted on being sweeper.

For your second point I would think for a new rider, learning to set proper entry speed and doing all your dirty work before the corner would be better to get first versus braking whilst in the corner.

Third point, no arguments. Though I think it's somewhat of a mental capacity issue. Well, more like how one processes these situations. For me I encountered many situations when I first started riding where I would take a corner a bit hot, but in my case I reacted by keeping my hands off the front brake, kept my eyes on the appearing corner, leaned mor, and throttled through. This saved me every time (aside from a few times where I tapped the rear to scrub mid-lean). Sadly in his case he panicked, and ended up in the guard rail.

 

[NorCalNav]

Personally I pulled out into the lot in front of the farm where the crash occurred. Again as I stated in the op this was my friend's gopro on his bike. But I'll relay the shoulder thing to him.

Regarding the crash, I never noticed the car, good point, was so fixated on the crash from watching the video I blocked the rest of the image.

As for what dirtyd mentioned. You have a valid point as far as leaning goes. However, for me I notice when I lean into a turn, my body automatically reacts and pushes on the handlebars. Not sure if that's a learned reaction or not but I get what your saying. Again, wasn't my friend, I didn't exactly approve of the last minute additional riders. But not my place to say, that's why I insisted on being sweeper.

For your second point I would think for a new rider, learning to set proper entry speed and doing all your dirty work before the corner would be better to get first versus braking whilst in the corner.

Third point, no arguments. Though I think it's somewhat of a mental capacity issue. Well, more like how one processes these situations. For me I encountered many situations when I first started riding where I would take a corner a bit hot, but in my case I reacted by keeping my hands off the front brake, kept my eyes on the appearing corner, leaned mor, and throttled through. This saved me every time (aside from a few times where I tapped the rear to scrub mid-lean). Sadly in his case he panicked, and ended up in the guard rail.

What car are we talking about here? The silver one in the other lane? That car is basically in the shoulder, how would that spook the rider??

I agree with your 2nd/3rd points...as a noob here, the last thing I'm trying to learn right now is how to brake in a corner, because MSF scared the shit out of me by saying I'd probably die if I do that!!

As of right now it's exactly what you said, lean more, throttle more, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN. Works every time!

 

[DirtyD]

In a perfect world you'd get all your braking done before the corner. But this ain't a perfect world. Sometimes things happen once you're already in the corner that are unexpected (water running across the road, a deer running across the road, etc.) and if you're only comfortable braking while straight up and down then you're going to run right off the road and crash. Practice the skills that might save your life someday or you won't instinctively use those skills when the time comes. Obviously you'll want to brake very gently and smoothly if you're carrying any real lean angle.

As for sitting in the shoulder: We were talking about the camera bike and the bike in front sitting in the shoulder before the crash, not after the crash.

It's true that normally a beginner can just lean the bike further and stay on the gas through a corner because they are nowhere near the cornering limits of their bike and tires. But, saying that leaning farther and "throttling through" is the answer is dangerous advice. Would that work if you came into a corner hot and off-line? Maybe. But slowing down is probably better advice. Rolling out of the throttle (essentially letting the engine apply a little rear brake) almost always helps tighten the turn and on inline motors is not going to cause the rear to step out (V4's and twins might be another story).

If you don't consciously think about counter-steering and you're riding a sport bike or similar big, heavy bike then you're not doing yourself any favors. I will literally use every ounce of upper body strength to pick the bike up when leaned over and set it down in the opposite direction (going through S turns) when at the track. Obviously riding on the street isn't normally as aggressive, but the idea is the same. You steer with the handlebars, not by leaning or praying. Hope the rider heals up quickly.

 

[babyhuyx]

In a perfect world you'd get all your braking done before the corner. But this ain't a perfect world. Sometimes things happen once you're already in the corner that are unexpected (water running across the road, a deer running across the road, etc.) and if you're only comfortable braking while straight up and down then you're going to run right off the road and crash. Practice the skills that might save your life someday or you won't instinctively use those skills when the time comes. Obviously you'll want to brake very gently and smoothly if you're carrying any real lean angle.

As for sitting in the shoulder: We were talking about the camera bike and the bike in front sitting in the shoulder before the crash, not after the crash.

It's true that normally a beginner can just lean the bike further and stay on the gas through a corner because they are nowhere near the cornering limits of their bike and tires. But, saying that leaning farther and "throttling through" is the answer is dangerous advice. Would that work if you came into a corner hot and off-line? Maybe. But slowing down is probably better advice. Rolling out of the throttle (essentially letting the engine apply a little rear brake) almost always helps tighten the turn and on inline motors is not going to cause the rear to step out (V4's and twins might be another story).

If you don't consciously think about counter-steering and you're riding a sport bike or similar big, heavy bike then you're not doing yourself any favors. I will literally use every ounce of upper body strength to pick the bike up when leaned over and set it down in the opposite direction (going through S turns) when at the track. Obviously riding on the street isn't normally as aggressive, but the idea is the same. You steer with the handlebars, not by leaning or praying. Hope the rider heals up quickly.

I don't see why you would have to consciously think about it. Thats like saying when I'm in the ring for a real match I should consciously think about dodging left jabs and right hooks. Or I should consciously think about when to clutch in and out when driving my cage. I dodge because I sparred so many times where those types of punches have hit me, that I recognize the movement and my brain will automatically send signals to my muscles to dodge. If you go into a fight and try and think about it, your going to end up not remembering what happened. These things can be practiced and learnt to the point of second nature where it's a reaction rather than action. It may start out as a action, but eventually I would assume you would want it to become synonymous to scratching an itch.

In S-type corners, I look and my body steers. It will lean, and my arms with push the handlebars appropriately. I think that active input where you have to think about it would be counter-productive.

 

[Toast]

If you feel yourself going wide or coming into a corner too hot, DO NOT panic and bail mid turn. Ride it out... force yourself to look through the turn, maintain throttle and push more on the bars to counter steer. Unless you're riding like an absolute madman the bike will be able to lean more then you think and will get you through the corner safely.

When I first started riding I went into a few corners too hot but I forced myself to ride it out and was fine.

 

[pvn.23]

If you feel yourself going wide or coming into a corner too hot, DO NOT panic and bail mid turn. Ride it out... force yourself to look through the turn, maintain throttle and push more on the bars to counter steer. Unless you're riding like an absolute madman the bike will be able to lean more then you think it and will get you through the corner safely.

When I first started riding I went into a few corners too hot but I forced myself to ride it out and was fine.

Same here, definitely looking through the turns ALL THE WAY and not target fixating will help. Our tires can grip the ground more than our mind thinks it can.

 

[DirtyD]

It may start out as a action, but eventually I would assume you would want it to become synonymous to scratching an itch.
.

Exactly. You can't practice something to the point where it becomes muscle memory unless you understand what it is you're practicing. Real beginners to riding big, fast motorcycles need to understand and practice counter-steering as a conscious thought until it becomes an unconscious reaction.

 

[DirtyD]

If you feel yourself going wide or coming into a corner too hot, DO NOT panic and bail mid turn. Ride it out... force yourself to look through the turn, maintain throttle and push more on the bars to counter steer. Unless you're riding like an absolute madman the bike will be able to lean more then you think it and will get you through the corner safely.

When I first started riding I went into a few corners too hot but I forced myself to ride it out and was fine.

This is good advice. But having the option of slowing down to help tighten the corner should not be dismissed. In this picture, if I found myself going wide I would have closed the throttle to slow down and tighten my arc. Even at this lean angle I don't need to "maintain throttle" to keep from sliding out.

 

[babyhuyx]

Exactly. You can't practice something to the point where it becomes muscle memory unless you understand what it is you're practicing. Real beginners to riding big, fast motorcycles need to understand and practice counter-steering as a conscious thought until it becomes an unconscious reaction.

Okay
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I took your comment as "ALWAYS think about counter-steering", instead of actually learning it to 2nd nature
I started out on a ninja 250 and had loads of fun learning on it before moving to a r6. And proper counter-steering and eye positioning was one of them.