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AFM 650 Twins at Infineon

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CptnHornblower

CptnHornblower

New member
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Location
Reno, NV
Moto(s)
SV 650 RIP, K1200GT, 1198S
Name
Bruce Thee
This is an interesting forum, crash analysis. Ok viewers, I was in the novice 650 Twins race on July 1 at Infineon. As a novice I was running yellow plates, supposedly to let "expert" riders know that we might do something unpredictable so they can give us a little more room, or croud us at their own peril. I was running a GoPro on the front of my bike. My question is does anyone think I did something wrong, or did James Strauch, AFM 206 just take me out? Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsay8VT2ThU&feature=plcp
 
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I believe you were in the wrong place at the wrong time,you did nothing wrong in my eyes.
 
I was sitting up above you when this happened.. So glad to see you get up after they dug you out of the air fence.


I don't like saying it, but just as I told my bud..he stuffed it in with not enough room.
100% not your fault.

Hope you are AOK man.
 
I'm with Budman; a good pass is the responsibility of the passer. This was a bad pass.
Glad you're (generally) ok!
 
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I think some people in the AFM forget that we're amateurs racing for fun and that most of us have to go to work on monday.

If that had been me, I would be having words with the responsible rider to get his side of the story.

It does look bad on video, but in his (possible) defense, sometimes you make an error in judgement and it's too late once you've committed. In other cases, though, people think they're racing in World Superbike and make overly aggressive passes for no reason what so ever.

Glad you made it out mostly ok. Sorry to hear about your bike.
 
One of the reasons I no longer race 650 Twins. Used to be a "polite" class, now it's become extremely aggressive.
 
OP, did you go and talk to that rider? show him the video?

edit: it looks to me as though you were away from the apex when he initiates his pass on you, (you were about half way across the track in transition it appears) and you were about to push to the right to make the last turn before the straight, yes? Looks like the front runners of experts had just passed you as well. and his pass was in process as you turn right into the curve. I don't see fault on him, nor you.

:dunno seems tight, but he made the apex before you were there, if even by a second. pause at :35 seconds. in that one second he gets his bike in front of yours, and you can see the apex (stripes) still about 15 feet ahead. tight for sure, but you are no where near the apex, and he's already grabbed the corner, and can guarantee he's chasing the top 2 guys in the race, who just passed you coming out of T7.

do you want him to pay you money or an apology, or why are you looking for fault?

do you have gap insurance, for the out of pocket medicals?

to me, it looks just like Alan's crash in T2 where he turns in and there is suddenly a bike there that is making the inside pass. no major fault of each, but more of a racing incident, regardless of personal feelings.

again, imo
 
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Guys, let's remember that this thread is in Crash Analysis. I realize that it isn't the typical CA thread, but the CA rules still apply. Focus on the incident without insulting the OP or other individuals or their opinions.
 
CptnHornblower said:
This is an interesting forum, crash analysis. Ok viewers, I was in the novice 650 Twins race on July 1 at Infineon. As a novice I was running yellow plates, supposedly to let "expert" riders know that we might do something unpredictable so they can give us a little more room, or croud us at their own peril. I was running a GoPro on the front of my bike. My question is does anyone think I did something wrong, or did James Strauch, AFM 206 just take me out? Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsay8VT2ThU&feature=plcp
Click to expand...

CptnHornblower, are you looking to learn from this, or are you looking to place blame?
 
budman said:
I was sitting up above you when this happened.. So glad to see you get up after they dug you out of the air fence.


I don't like saying it, but just as I told my bud..he stuffed it in with not enough room.
100% not your fault.

Hope you are AOK man.
Click to expand...

That was my first time in an airfence. Interesting experience. I never blacked out, so I vagely remember the asphalt, then the dirt, then seeing sky, dirt, sky, dirt and then I remember hitting the fence and hearing the woosh sound as the air went out of the fence. When I was under it I knew where I was and tried to get out, but I couldn't use my right arm and when I tried to lift the fence with my left and roll out my right shoulder told me in no uncertain terms that rolling right was a bad idea. So then I just laid back and waited for the turn workers. Of course, they lift the fence off me and immidiatly grab my right arm to pull me out. I squealed like a bitch and they quit pulling :cry I think I'll make an air fence donation, those things really work!
 
Enchanter said:
CptnHornblower, are you looking to learn from this, or are you looking to place blame?
Click to expand...

I guess both. Either I screwed up and cut him off, but didn't realize it, or he did a really bad pass and took me out. If I screwed up I'd like to know, if I didn't, I'd like to know. Is that what this forum is for?
 
CptnHornblower said:
I guess both. Either I screwed up and cut him off, but didn't realize it, or he did a really bad pass and took me out. If I screwed up I'd like to know, if I didn't, I'd like to know. Is that what this forum is for?
Click to expand...

Cool, it is exactly what this forum is for. I wanted to ensure that this wasn't personal between you and the other guy. Posting his name in the original post made me wonder.
 
machete said:
OP, did you go and talk to that rider? show him the video?

edit: it looks to me as though you were away from the apex when he initiates his pass on you, (you were about half way across the track in transition it appears) and you were about to push to the right to make the last turn before the straight, yes? Looks like the front runners of experts had just passed you as well. and his pass was in process as you turn right into the curve. I don't see fault on him, nor you.

:dunno seems tight, but he made the apex before you were there, if even by a second. pause at :35 seconds. in that one second he gets his bike in front of yours, and you can see the apex (stripes) still about 15 feet ahead. tight for sure, but you are no where near the apex, and he's already grabbed the corner, and can guarantee he's chasing the top 2 guys in the race, who just passed you coming out of T7.

do you want him to pay you money or an apology, or why are you looking for fault?

do you have gap insurance, for the out of pocket medicals?

to me, it looks just like Alan's crash in T2 where he turns in and there is suddenly a bike there that is making the inside pass. no major fault of each, but more of a racing incident, regardless of personal feelings.

again, imo
Click to expand...

You maybe right, that's why I posted the video. I felt like I was just starting to turn in to apex 8a and I thought I was on the race line. The two guys that passed me clean took 4th and 5th in the race, the one in yellow is Dan Sewell, a friend of mine.

So I guess the real question is when does the guy passing get the right of way? If he can get his front wheel an inch ahead of mine in a pass, does it then become my job to stay out of his way?

I never heard from him; Jay Avansino, also a 650 Twins guy that's taking this year off packed up my stuff and picked me up at the hospital. He said noone came by the pit, so I don't know what 206 thought. Maybe he's waiting for me to appologize?
 
afm199 said:
One of the reasons I no longer race 650 Twins. Used to be a "polite" class, now it's become extremely aggressive.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's a 650 Twins issue. At the Friday track day a 250 rider took out a friend of mine in the B group, Alan Cunningham got into it, I ended up crashed. I think Antarius may have it right, people are getting too aggressive in general.
 
I am obviously not qualified to comment on this :) hope you heal up fast. Let me know if I can help with anything :)
 
Have the Sadowski brothers moved to 650 twins? :laughing

I've had my knee on the rumble strip and Ken Hill still passed me on the inside, so it's possible to do in tight circumstances. Slower riders are part of the course, and it's the passers obligation to do so safely. It looked as though the passing rider was still swinging wide and missed the apex himself.

The only way to avoid this though is to ride faster. But then you have the problem with coming up on slower riders. My head hurts.

Edit: I didn't see anything malicious just a racing incident.
 
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CptnHornblower said:
You maybe right, that's why I posted the video. I felt like I was just starting to turn in to apex 8a and I thought I was on the race line. The two guys that passed me clean took 4th and 5th in the race, the one in yellow is Dan Sewell, a friend of mine.

So I guess the real question is when does the guy passing get the right of way? If he can get his front wheel an inch ahead of mine in a pass, does it then become my job to stay out of his way?

I never heard from him; Jay Avansino, also a 650 Twins guy that's taking this year off packed up my stuff and picked me up at the hospital. He said noone came by the pit, so I don't know what 206 thought. Maybe he's waiting for me to appologize?
Click to expand...

One inch at that speed does not constitute position unless you are really aware of the move as in entering the chicane and you guys are both pretty upright.

He was moving quite a bit faster and that is why the one inch just does not make sense here. It sure was not intentional, but it ended up being a bad decision and you paid the price for it.

The gap was small and you were already turning in when he went for it. I would assume he thought you were going to stay wider and he could clear you. A racing incident for sure and I would hope it won't happen again, but in the heat of competition these decisions are split second and shit happens sometimes. You sure don't need to apologize.

I noted the "fffffffft".. of the air bag and the back side flap blew up vertically.
They really do work... after hitting tires at speed myself.. I would sure prefer a little air instead of that rubber.
 
budman said:
He was moving quite a bit faster and that is why the one inch just does not make sense here. It sure was not intentional, but it ended up being a bad decision and you paid the price for it.
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You see more equally matched riders make inside passes all the time. The outside rider usually has more time and can see them coming in and NOT turn into them when the speeds are closer. I think in this case the closing speed was too high and there was no way for you to see him coming up your inside with enough time to let him go by. To me....it seems like your lines through the previous turns were consistent enough for the passing rider to know where you would be at the apex.

I don't think you did anything wrong. I think the rider that took you out made a bad decision and didn't want to lose any ground on the other bikes by backing off so he took a risk. It didn't pay off and you paid the price as Dennis said.

Hopefully he was man enough to acknowledge that and talk about it with you after. But...after seeing Alan's videos, it seems like some AFM racers just don't get it :dunno

Heal up!
 
Whether we have a white plate or a yellow plate, in most cases, we are all still learning how to race. In the learning process, sometimes comes that moment of decision where it does not end up quite right, as in your example. Had the other rider pulled off the pass, it would be the highlight of the bench race with beer in hand. Luckily for all of us, this scenario happens more than the converse where friends are packing up your pits for you.

So as you are an up and coming racer, I will ask you some questions and please don't take them the wrong way as I agree whole-heartedly with Budman's assessment, but this is for you for the future :)

Did you hear or feel the rider coming up to you?

If first and second place went by, did you factor in that more riders may be coming?

If you did factor in that more were coming, did you inadvertantly stay off line a bit longer to allow someone an inside pass?

Something that I have been for the most part very lucky in my career, I have always been pretty good at hearing things. I think this was a 2-stroke thing as any funny noise could be your motor seizing. The other thing was that when riding a 2 stroke, when a 4 stroke would come near by, audible harmonics would change, and if it was a big twin, I could actually feel pulsations. In short, these sensitivities became like eyes behind my head and let me know where people were in and around me.

Also, learning to use my peripheral vision has been tremendous in my safety. Did you see him?
If you did, was it possible to stand your bike up a bit, but stay on your line?
Could you have used some front brake?

I am glad you are ok for the most part and sad that this happened to you and happy the air fence did it's job. But racing is a constant learning process and a constant state of processing information. Again, the things that I am asking you are not to make you feel bad, but perhaps things you could throw into your arsenal of tools or perhaps refine to hone your racecraft. But good on you for asking! :thumbup

And I am pretty sure, or at least I hope, the other rider is processing information as to what to do the next time this same situation occurs and has refined the timing and/or the line to make the pass successful.

And in the spirit of keeping things positive, I would say that the young riders these days are not overly aggressive, but perhaps situationally under aware of the track in it's entirety as opposed to just their line....and I blame video games for this :laughing

humbly offered,
Kaz
 
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