Get low, like an 18 wheeler

[M-x butterfly]

Lowside, that is.

Where I crashed: http://goo.gl/maps/8mbvW

What went wrong: See that curb in the middle of the Street View image? It would be to your right after you finished the left turn. It starts off wide, narrows, and then widens again. I was obviously turning in, and I thought I was going to hit the curb. I was thinking about adjusting my steering in the middle of the turn, but I decided that I could just straighten out later and I'd be fine. Then, a car pulls into the turn, to my right, and goes beyond the solid white pedestrian crosswalk. I didn't think he would stop. Despite knowing better, I tried to steer away. I steered to the left as I was leaning to the left, and I steered straight into the ground. I was going close to 15 MPH. The car stopped, I think, but drove away. The shifter lever bent in and got stuck to the bike, my clutch lever snapped off, and my turn signal+mirror snapped off.

What I did wrong: Who the hell steers into the ground? I mean, really. I think this was a textbook lowside caused by the front wheel letting go due to improper rider input during a turn.

What went right: the gear I was wearing worked beautifully. I tucked on my way down, so my gloves didn't touch the asphalt. My jacket has a 1" rough spot on it, but that's pretty much nothing. Helmet didn't touch the asphalt. My boots were the saving grace here (SMX Plus). I think my left ankle would have been much much worse off if it weren't for the boot taking the bulk of the asphalt damage and the impact. The boot also kept my foot from twisting thanks to torsion-preventing hinges. I have a sprained ankle, swollen brachioradialis, traumatized shoulder (but it's not bad), traumatized knee (also not bad), and a bruised hip. I got off pretty easy. I was able to pick up my bike after and pull it off on to the dirt behind the curb.

What I would do next time: I'd straighten out and brake. But, what if the car didn't stop? Was this an inevitable crash? As far as gear goes: I would get better gloves. I was wearing cheap gloves that were thick leather, and while they didn't get used, they very well might've. Not sure how they would've done in a live performance. Why risk it? Ideally, I'd get even better boots. This was a low-speed lowside and I still wound up with a sprained ankle. I could've broken a bone easily in this endeavor. Some more torsion protection and over-extension protection might come in handy. I'd get knee and shin guards. I was wearing jeans which were ripped by the asphalt, and I got road rash on my knee. Which stings. A lot. I will get hip protection. This better be the last time I think "ow, my kidney." Lastly, I'd carry my fucking phone. This was the first time I rode without my phone (forgot to pick it up), and all goes to hell. As a side note, my phone might not have survived the crash if it were in my pocket. Moreover, the phone might have impacted the family jewels.

Because I just know that someone is going to ask: Tire pressure was low. Front wheel was at 23 and rear wheel was at 30 (both measurements taken while cold). Tires were not cold at the time of the lowside since I was riding for about 1.5 hours prior.

BUT WAIT! There's more!

About two hours after I crashed, I was waiting on the side of the road for some sort of a rescue when a kind rider on a Honda Dual Sport came by to offer help. In a jiffy, he went off to grab a tow strap. He returned, looped the tow strap to the right half of my fork and said "hop on! I'll tow you to my place, and you can wait there!" I...went along with the plan. He ripped the throttle on his bike and yanked mine causing it to fall to the right as it dragged for a good 2 ft. Yeah, I damaged both sides of my bike on the same day! This fall hurt a lot more than my lowside My right elbow hit dirt, and my bike hit asphalt. Fairing around the headlight cracked (mind that my lowside resulted in just a few scratches and no cracks on the fairings), and my right-hand side controls got bent (and in the case of my mirrors, they broke off). Good times. He meant well, but I don't think I should've accepted his tow. Did more harm than good.

Feedback and general responses appreciated Let me know what you would have done, and let me know how I should go about fixing my bike (I solicited some help already, but I can't imagine it would hurt to hear from you too). Most importantly, let me know how I can fix my riding.

 

[DataDan]

To set the stage a little more clearly:

You were eastbound on Fremont and made a left turn to northbound Grant on a green arrow. As you did, a westbound car was threatening to make a simultaneous right turn onto northbound Grant, which is single-lane. You veered away from the car but went down on your left side at low speed.

Is that right?

 

[M-x butterfly]

To set the stage a little more clearly:

You were eastbound on Fremont and made a left turn to northbound Grant on a green arrow. As you did, a westbound car was threatening to make a simultaneous right turn onto northbound Grant, which is single-lane. You veered away from the car but went down on your left side at low speed.

Is that right?

Yeah, that's much more precise than my description and fully accurate. Although "veered away" might be giving me too much credit I attempted to do so to little avail! Thanks for summarizing.

 

[DataDan]

So you attempted to veer left. What do you remember about the action you took to steer away from the car?

Were you doing anything with other controls--throttle, brake, clutch, gearshift?

And, how would you describe the fall? Was it one of those slo-mo deals, where you had time to think "Uh oh. I'm falling." Or was it really quick?


[Forgive my seemingly dim questions. I'm trying to figure out out what is it that made you go down. Was it was loss of traction, and if so, which consumers of grip contributed. Or, was it loss of balance, possible due to sensory overload--worrying about the curb, the car, and the maneuver all at the same time.]

 

[M-x butterfly]

So you attempted to veer left. What do you remember about the action you took to steer away from the car?

I remember wanting to get away from the car. Frankly, everything else was muscle memory. This is why I think I very likely steered as opposed to countersteered.

Were you doing anything with other controls--throttle, brake, clutch, gearshift?

A very timid roll on throttle, but insignificant to contribute, I think.

And, how would you describe the fall? Was it one of those slo-mo deals, where you had time to think "Uh oh. I'm falling." Or was it really quick?

It was quick for sure. I remember thinking "I should get out of the way" and then feeling the fall on my arm.

[Forgive my seemingly dim questions. I'm trying to figure out out what is it that made you go down. Was it was loss of traction, and if so, which consumers of grip contributed. Or, was it loss of balance, possible due to sensory overload--worrying about the curb, the car, and the maneuver all at the same time.]

Please, don't even use "forgive" I appreciate it. I'd like to know why I fell, too. That's why I'm here.

I can tell you another detail that made me think I steered: there were white lines on the left side of my front tire (left being the side of the tire that was closest to the ground) after I crashed. This implies that the tire wasn't rotating and that it slid. Another reason for these scratches would be because the front wheel locked, right? I don't recall reaching for the brakes, but...

 

[Gary856]

I was obviously turning in, and I thought I was going to hit the curb. I was thinking about adjusting my steering in the middle of the turn, but I decided that I could just straighten out later and I'd be fine.

Did you turn in too early (early apex) which forced you to go wide after clearing the center divider? Try turn in later (late apex) next time so you can stay on the inside of the turn.

Despite knowing better, I tried to steer away. I steered to the left as I was leaning to the left, and I steered straight into the ground.

What I did wrong: Who the hell steers into the ground? I mean, really. I think this was a textbook lowside caused by the front wheel letting go due to improper rider input during a turn.

You rode MX and recently switch to a street bike? When you say "I STEERED to the left", how? I mean, which side of the bar were you pushing, i.e., which way did you turn the bars?

What I would do next time: I'd straighten out and brake. But, what if the car didn't stop? Was this an inevitable crash?

You could have gone slower, or faster. You could have turned-in later and turned tighter, stayed closer to the left edge. Inevitable crash? Of course not.

BUT WAIT! There's more!

About two hours after I crashed, I was waiting on the side of the road for some sort of a rescue when a kind rider on a Honda Dual Sport came by to offer help. In a jiffy, he went off to grab a tow strap. He returned, looped the tow strap to the right half of my fork and said "hop on! I'll tow you to my place, and you can wait there!" I...went along with the plan. He ripped the throttle on his bike and yanked mine causing it to fall to the right as it dragged for a good 2 ft. Yeah, I damaged both sides of my bike on the same day! This fall hurt a lot more than my lowside My right elbow hit dirt, and my bike hit asphalt. Fairing around the headlight cracked (mind that my lowside resulted in just a few scratches and no cracks on the fairings), and my right-hand side controls got bent (and in the case of my mirrors, they broke off). Good times. He meant well, but I don't think I should've accepted his tow. Did more harm than good.

Jesus! The guy who gave that kind of "help" is a moron! Towing a moto with a strap is extremely tricky - you don't do that with a stranger who just crashed.

 

[DataDan]

Because you went down quickly, I would guess you lost front grip. From the speed, I wouldn't think it was due to cornering demand alone. Which leaves the brake. If you grabbed the front brake in that corner, a quick lowside would be the likely outcome.

 

[M-x butterfly]

Did you turn in too early (early apex) which forced you to go wide after clearing the center divider? Try turn in later (late apex) next time so you can stay on the inside of the turn.

I did it mid apex because that's what I'm used to. I was probably actually fine for the turn...I was just tempted to overcompensate.

You rode MX and recently switch to a street bike? When you say "I STEERED to the left", how? I mean, which side of the bar were you pushing, i.e., which way did you turn the bars?

No, what I mean by steer is that I did things that were stupid to do on a motorcycle. I think I moved the handlebars in the direction of the turn while I was leaning.

You could have gone slower, or faster. You could have turned-in later and turned tighter, stayed closer to the left edge. Inevitable crash? Of course not.

Good point...I actually thought about going faster, but that would've pushed me wider, and I was afraid that I'd hit the curb. I didn't slow down because I haven't practiced braking during turns (even feathering the rear). When I panicked because of the car, I guess I did the last thing that I didn't explicitly prevent myself from doing.

Jesus! The guy who gave that kind of "help" is a moron! Towing a moto with a strap is extremely tricky - you don't do that with a stranger who just crashed.

Uhh, yeah. I also have never been towed with a strap, and I was not expecting the difficulty in steering. I'm quite sad by the additional damage this caused.

 

[M-x butterfly]

Because you went down quickly, I would guess you lost front grip.

I agree. The "scratches" in white on my front tire also agree with this, I think.

From the speed, I wouldn't think it was due to cornering demand alone. Which leaves the brake. If you grabbed the front brake in that corner, a quick lowside would be the likely outcome.

Would you discount input to the handlebars? If I may ask, would I have gone down slower if I were moved the handlebars towards the turn? More generally, what are the characteristics of lowsides caused by improper input and front wheel seizure?

 

[DataDan]

Would you discount input to the handlebars? If I may ask, would I have gone down slower if I were moved the handlebars towards the turn? More generally, what are the characteristics of lowsides caused by improper input and front wheel seizure?

I don't think a steering input to the left would result in a fall to the left; it would tend to straighten the bike up. Steering hard to the right could indeed cause the bike to fall to the left, but it would have to be a pretty severe input. I'm hoping tzrider will have an analysis to offer here. He's very good at figuring out loss-of-grip situations.


Now, let's talk about the momentary panic that set this off. You said, "a car pulls into the turn, to my right, and goes beyond the solid white pedestrian crosswalk. I didn't think he would stop."

Think about what was going through your mind as you began your left turn and noticed the oncoming car in the right-turn lane. Did you consider the vehicle a potential threat before it crossed the crosswalk, or only after? The earlier you consider the possibility, the easier it is to manage the threat. If it crosses the crosswalk moving at a steady speed, you have to act NOW. But if you notice it earlier, you can slow your approach. And if it does continue beyond the crosswalk, you're prepared to roll off a little more and give him the roadway.

Also, Gary makes a great point about the line through a turn like this. From your initial comments, it sounds like you were committed to a wide exit, which means you turned in early. If instead, you had turned in later, you would have more flexibility at the exit. The bike would be more upright and moving more in a straight line sooner.

Generally, I like to square off turns in town. Go in deep, make a sharp turn at fairly low speed, and exit as straight as possible. By not committing to a particular path at the exit, I can deal with threats more easily. I can move left or right, accelerate or slow.

 

[msincredible]

Also, Gary makes a great point about the line through a turn like this. From your initial comments, it sounds like you were committed to a wide exit, which means you turned in early. If instead, you had turned in later, you would have more flexibility at the exit. The bike would be more upright and moving more in a straight line sooner.

Generally, I like to square off turns in town. Go in deep, make a sharp turn at fairly low speed, and exit as straight as possible. By not committing to a particular path at the exit, I can deal with threats more easily. I can move left or right, accelerate or slow.

Also, I think that if the OP hadn't gone so wide on the turn the car might have been more likely to see him there.

 

[brichter]

Was this an inevitable crash?

Almost every crash is inevitable once you give up trying to avoid it...

 

[M-x butterfly]

Almost every crash is inevitable once you give up trying to avoid it...

:| No thanks.

Also, I think that if the OP hadn't gone so wide on the turn the car might have been more likely to see him there.

That makes sense...I just didn't think I was that far wide, but I likely was if I got the impression that I was going to hit the curb.

I don't think a steering input to the left would result in a fall to the left; it would tend to straighten the bike up.

Because of countersteering? Hm, that makes sense...

This may only be tangentially related, and this is not even close to how I ride, but could you explain what happens at 0:30 - 0:33 for me? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTn7iisAntE
I was assuming that pointing the wheel further to the left caused the lowside in the video.

Steering hard to the right could indeed cause the bike to fall to the left, but it would have to be a pretty severe input.

I'm pretty certain I didn't steer to the right...It doesn't seem like something I would instinctively do. I could always be wrong.

I'm hoping tzrider will have an analysis to offer here. He's very good at figuring out loss-of-grip situations.

Extra insight is always helpful!

Now, let's talk about the momentary panic that set this off. You said, "a car pulls into the turn, to my right, and goes beyond the solid white pedestrian crosswalk. I didn't think he would stop."

Think about what was going through your mind as you began your left turn and noticed the oncoming car in the right-turn lane. Did you consider the vehicle a potential threat before it crossed the crosswalk, or only after?

Heh, I actually have fairly distinct memory of this. The order of evaluation was (1) "Oh, there are cars coming into the turn...They'll be behind the yield by the time I finish my turn. Should be fine if I continue at my pace." (2) "Hm, I might run into the curb...I shouldn't need to correct the turn, but I will hold the turn a bit longer if I need to" (3) "Aaaand shit shit shit."

I didn't consider the cars to be an immediate threat. Maybe I judged the speed of the cars poorly, and maybe I should've assumed a greater threat. I was then distracted(?) by the curb. Lastly, I panicked because, despite the fact that the car stopped, I assumed I was in more immediate danger.

The earlier you consider the possibility, the easier it is to manage the threat. If it crosses the crosswalk moving at a steady speed, you have to act NOW. But if you notice it earlier, you can slow your approach. And if it does continue beyond the crosswalk, you're prepared to roll off a little more and give him the roadway.

I can understand this, and I can even say the same thing, but my intuition while riding is apparently not up to par in the presence of distracting factors like a curb, heh.

Also, Gary makes a great point about the line through a turn like this. From your initial comments, it sounds like you were committed to a wide exit, which means you turned in early. If instead, you had turned in later, you would have more flexibility at the exit. The bike would be more upright and moving more in a straight line sooner.

Yeah, I considered my turn to be pretty middle of the road, but I likely overestimated the width of the road since it narrowed. I should've turned sharper regardless.

Generally, I like to square off turns in town. Go in deep, make a sharp turn at fairly low speed, and exit as straight as possible. By not committing to a particular path at the exit, I can deal with threats more easily. I can move left or right, accelerate or slow.

I will change my behavior. I'm comfortable making sharp turns on my bike, but I didn't think there was much need for them. This, however, makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

PS. I haven't really noticed people using inlined responses on BARF...Please let me know if this is annoying for you all, and I'll collated my responses instead of inlining them.

 

[JurisRider]

From the point where you realized the curb might be a problem onward, how much of your time did you spend looking at the curb, the oncoming car, or other objects to your right versus looking through your turn towards where you wanted to end up?

Talking as a total newbie here, many of my turn-based panic moments have come from spending too much time looking at the guardrail/rock wall/car/curb/etc. I didn't want to hit instead of looking through the turn. When I realize my bike is not going where I want it to, that's when I'm most prone to making jerky panic inputs on the controls (like grabbing the front brake) to "correct" the problem.

 

[M-x butterfly]

From the point where you realized the curb might be a problem onward, how much of your time did you spend looking at the curb, the oncoming car, or other objects to your right versus looking through your turn towards where you wanted to end up?

Talking as a total newbie here, many of my turn-based panic moments have come from spending too much time looking at the guardrail/rock wall/car/curb/etc. I didn't want to hit instead of looking through the turn. When I realize my bike is not going where I want it to, that's when I'm most prone to making jerky panic inputs on the controls (like grabbing the front brake) to "correct" the problem.

I saw the curb in my peripheral vision, but the car entered my line of sight. I don't think I looked away from the turn out of fear of target fixating. By fear, I mean general avoidance tactic -- not the "I'm shaking in my boots" kind.

 

[kazoo]

What time of day did this happen? Depending on ambient temperature/moisture, the white pedestrian crossing lines could have been slick as well

Just a thought

Also where did the bike end up after the lowside? Did it slide into the curb? etc.

 

[M-x butterfly]

This happened around 4:30PM, so I don't think ambient temperature played much of a role. Actually, it was 95F out. As I was standing outside, I felt quite dehydrated, haha.

The bike ended up on the asphalt and didn't collide with anything afterwards. It actually didn't even slide very far from where I fell (about 2 ft). It was out of the way enough to let cars make right turns. Oncoming traffic would have needed to stop if they had a green light. By the time they had a green light, I moved my bike to the side of the road and close to the curb. Cars turning right stopped for a few minutes and the bike eventually got moved to the other side of the curb and on to the dirt.

 

[iehawk]

Lowside, that is.

Where I crashed: http://goo.gl/maps/8mbvW

What went wrong: See that curb in the middle of the Street View image? It would be to your right after you finished the left turn. It starts off wide, narrows, and then widens again. I was obviously turning in, and I thought I was going to hit the curb. I was thinking about adjusting my steering in the middle of the turn, but I decided that I could just straighten out later and I'd be fine. Then, a car pulls into the turn, to my right, and goes beyond the solid white pedestrian crosswalk. I didn't think he would stop. Despite knowing better, I tried to steer away. I steered to the left as I was leaning to the left, and I steered straight into the ground. I was going close to 15 MPH. The car stopped, I think, but drove away. The shifter lever bent in and got stuck to the bike, my clutch lever snapped off, and my turn signal+mirror snapped off.

What I did wrong: Who the hell steers into the ground? I mean, really. I think this was a textbook lowside caused by the front wheel letting go due to improper rider input during a turn.

What I would do next time: I'd straighten out and brake. But, what if the car didn't stop? Was this an inevitable crash?

Because I just know that someone is going to ask: Tire pressure was low. Front wheel was at 23 and rear wheel was at 30 (both measurements taken while cold). Tires were not cold at the time of the lowside since I was riding for about 1.5 hours prior.

Agreed with the entry point, possibly being too narrow, not giving enough room to maneuver while turning.

Questions:

When (at what point) did you start to see the car pulling onto the turn to the right?
How far back did/could you see the incoming car?
Were you going that fast or that committed to the turn that you couldn't slow down or stop right then?

And no, don't rely on peripheral vision only (well, unless you are trained to do so). That is good to spot far-away objects, but you need to look to be sure.

I've heard people described getting into accidents where they were not riding hard, in other words well within their skill level. A friend described he was going through an easy turn, 30-40mph; suddenly he realized he was going wide. He pushed the bike toward the turn, leaned it more. Not going fast enough, he low sided.

At where you were, you would not have many options of what to do. If you think you can straighten up and brake to stop, where would you end up?

When you are going slow, you can only lean the bike so much, or you will go down. That's just Physics. If you want to lean it more, you would have to speed up and/or counter balance it with your weight.

So what's the problem? Got caught off guard (distracted), being well within the potential danger area/circle. My take on this is by avoiding being caught in this potential danger circle, you can minimize your risk a lot (go slower, quicker, or around it).

Here's what I would do in a similar situation:

If I see a a car potentially coming my way, I would plan to be almost upright by the time I go through the second white line (ped walkway), that way I can stop quickly if I have to, in case I see someone coming fast and unsure whether he/she will stop or not. This might require me to go through the turn a bit slower. I want to be ready for anything, to stop or to get out of the way quickly.

The key here is knowing as far as possible, keep following to see how it would play, and be ready to react accordingly. Have options of what you would do if A, B, C, etc.

Plan ahead is a great thing, It was taught at MSF. You can eventually practice to brake and stop in the middle of a turn (trail brake maybe?), it is not impossible to do and it's a valuable skill to have.

 

[kazoo]

I've heard people described getting into accidents where they were not riding hard, in other words well within their skill level. A friend described he was going through an easy turn, 30-40mph; suddenly he realized he was going wide. He pushed the bike toward the turn, leaned it more. Not going fast enough, he low sided.

When you are going slow, you can only lean the bike so much, or you will go down. That's just Physics. If you want to lean it more, you would have to speed up and/or counter balance it with your weight.

Interesting.

I've had a few situations where the bike feels lazy and wants to "flop over" in a relatively low speed right angle turn. I've been able to feel it as it's happening each time and reacted by adding throttle to bring the bike upright.
In these scenarios, it feels like the front end is collapsing or folding. So I can understand a lowside if you try to lean it over farther without more gas

I've also noticed that this effect is much worse when my tire pressures are low. When my tires are inflated properly, the bike feels much more solid and less likely to "flop over"

I wonder if maybe the OP experienced something like this, and simply leaned the bike too far over for the amount of throttle roll-on. In conjunction, the low tire pressures could have made it worse?
I feel these effects at a front tire below 30psi, so a front tire at 23psi can't be any better...

 

[M-x butterfly]

When (at what point) did you start to see the car pulling onto the turn to the right? How far back did/could you see the incoming car?

Well, depends. I saw the car from pretty far away being in the right turn lane, so I knew they'd turn right. They just were sufficiently far away that it would not have mattered unless they were speeding and, if they were, if they yielded. They sped and did not yield properly.

Were you going that fast or that committed to the turn that you couldn't slow down or stop right then?

Nah, I was going rather slow, but I didn't quite know how to brake whilst turning. Straightening the bike and then braking might've meant that I'd hit the curb (actually, probably not given that stopping distance on a bike is minuscule, but that's now what I was thinking when I was riding).

And no, don't rely on peripheral vision only (well, unless you are trained to do so). That is good to spot far-away objects, but you need to look to be sure.

Uhm, I guess I don't rely entirely on it...But in this case, the curb was something that I saw in my peripheral vision. It wasn't going to be much of an issue until it became a barricade preventing evasive maneuvers that I was familiar with.

I've heard people described getting into accidents where they were not riding hard, in other words well within their skill level. A friend described he was going through an easy turn, 30-40mph; suddenly he realized he was going wide. He pushed the bike toward the turn, leaned it more. Not going fast enough, he low sided.

Well, the thing is that I don't think I leaned into the turn. I steered into it, I think. But, DataDan mentioned that turning left while leaning left doesn't mean that the front wheel would tuck, so I don't know what happened. Maybe I braked? I also posted a YouTube video where it looked lik a rider steered in the direction of the lean and lowsided, but I didn't get any responses clarifying what happened there...not that it is fully relevant here. It'd just help my understanding of what causes lowsides.

At where you were, you would not have many options of what to do. If you think you can straighten up and brake to stop, where would you end up?

Into the curb right past the pedestrian crossing. But that's probably underestimating my bike's braking power.

When you are going slow, you can only lean the bike so much, or you will go down. That's just Physics. If you want to lean it more, you would have to speed up and/or counter balance it with your weight.

Yep...I was maintaining my speed rather than accelerating.

So what's the problem? Got caught off guard (distracted), being well within the potential danger area/circle. My take on this is by avoiding being caught in this potential danger circle, you can minimize your risk a lot (go slower, quicker, or around it).

Fair advice. Thanks!

Here's what I would do in a similar situation:

If I see a a car potentially coming my way, I would plan to be almost upright by the time I go through the second white line (ped walkway), that way I can stop quickly if I have to, in case I see someone coming fast and unsure whether he/she will stop or not. This might require me to go through the turn a bit slower. I want to be ready for anything, to stop or to get out of the way quickly.

The key here is knowing as far as possible, keep following to see how it would play, and be ready to react accordingly. Have options of what you would do if A, B, C, etc.

Plan ahead is a great thing, It was taught at MSF. You can eventually practice to brake and stop in the middle of a turn (trail brake maybe?), it is not impossible to do and it's a valuable skill to have.

I think I'll avoid getting myself into situations where trail braking would be needed, but it is something I'd like to learn sooner rather than later. Thanks for the feedback.