Low Siiiide REMINDER TO ALL

[pt65]

So, I know exactly WHAT happened, and exactly WHY it happened, and want to just remind everyone, and give a SHOUT OUT to OES Accessories. Those sliders did their jobs very very well. And single slider and single spool replacements were very much appreciated.

Can't beat the price either at $ 55 for a set of sliders AND spools (and half that for replacements).

So...details....I don't normally commute on the bike. Its a fun and convenience machine. As such, usually when I get on it, I am in the right mindset - watch the cold tires, watch the traffic, warm up the tires, easy on the throttle, etc. etc.

On this particular (unfortunate / fortunate) day, I ride the bike out to Alameda b/c its convenient and I don't want to get stuck in traffic. No problem. Then, instead of heading home, to switch vehicles (back to a cage) to go to work BUT INSTEAD, I figure, save some time, go straight to work.

At the end of a hectic day, I have some errands to run, bank deposit, etc., and all day the bikes been parked in the shade, in the cold, on a cold dry day.

Instead of getting in the right mindset, I am already seeing myself on the road, at the bank, at the next stop and so on. As I drive off, I think, did I zip up all my pockets? and stop 100 feet from where I started (which also happens to be at a stop sign, at which I have to turn right).

"Yep, pockets all zipped up, jeez I really need to get going"...
- a little too much throttle
- leaning to turn
- cold azz Q2 take offs

BAM!!! as if a giant kicked the rear tire out from under me, and I'm watching my bike slide and spin 15 feet away from me.

*Sigh*headshake*grmbl###**&!!!*stooopid*

Pick it up and this is what it looks like (thanks to the guys at OES Accessories !!). The pavement where the bike slid is VERY rough and pcokmarked. On a smoother road they wouldnt have ground down as much. But they absorbed the impact pretty well. Crumpled / bent a bit.

Before and After pics

 

[pt65]

ok - pics not loading properly, but you get the idea...

 

[Gary856]

Every time I read about cold tire -> a little too much throttle -> starting or low speed lean to turn -> rear slides out, I wonder about the riding habit and mind set of the rider. Throttle control becomes ingrained in muscle memory after a while, especially when leaning/turning where the throttle plays a big part in balancing the lean. Since muscle memory requires no conscious thought, how does one absentmindedly use too much throttle in a low speed turn to the point of lowsiding? Were you consciously doing a hard, tire spinning take off, with the bike leaned over?

 

[Spec-ECU]

How much do you think you were leaned over to make that right turn from a stop?

 

[Fjr17]

Every time I read about cold tire -> a little too much throttle -> starting or low speed lean to turn -> rear slides out, I wonder about the riding habit and mind set of the rider. Throttle control becomes ingrained in muscle memory after a while, especially when leaning/turning where the throttle plays a big part in balancing the lean. Since muscle memory requires no conscious thought, how does one absentmindedly use too much throttle in a low speed turn to the point of lowsiding? Were you consciously doing a hard, tire spinning take off, with the bike leaned over?

I can very well understand if it was a low-side at the track since people push harder than they do on the streets.

 

[Jbox88]

I would like to add a little to this thread from a similar, previous accident I was in on my 07 gsxr 750. My tires had been cold as well, but, I did not get on the throttle hard, although, I had been leaning somewhat hard. Low speed, left turn, I cut the turn a little hard and hit a reflector which caused the tire to slip just enough to cause me to "body drag". Still going, I attempted to counter-steer and over-corrected, bike shot up and resulted in a high side.

So, what I'm curious to hear is at that point, where the tire starts coming out, do you just lay it down? Or do you attempt to counter-steer and risk highsiding?

 

[Spec-ECU]

I would like to add a little to this thread from a similar, previous accident I was in on my 07 gsxr 750. My tires had been cold as well, but, I did not get on the throttle hard, although, I had been leaning somewhat hard. Low speed, left turn, I cut the turn a little hard and hit a reflector which caused the tire to slip just enough to cause me to "body drag". Still going, I attempted to counter-steer and over-corrected, bike shot up and resulted in a high side.

So, what I'm curious to hear is at that point, where the tire starts coming out, do you just lay it down? Or do you attempt to counter-steer and risk highsiding?

I've been riding cold morning commutes for years now, and have hit reflectors or painted lines/surfaces seconds from just leaving my house. Even if the front and/or rear wheel does step out or slide underneath me, I've never had any harmful incident.

At that kind of low-speed manuever, you don't have to do anything other than ride it through. It'll correct itself.

As it is though, try and minimize the amount of leaning that you do, especially for the purposes that you had such incidents with.

 

[Enchanter]

I would like to add a little to this thread from a similar, previous accident I was in on my 07 gsxr 750. My tires had been cold as well, but, I did not get on the throttle hard, although, I had been leaning somewhat hard. Low speed, left turn, I cut the turn a little hard and hit a reflector which caused the tire to slip just enough to cause me to "body drag". Still going, I attempted to counter-steer and over-corrected, bike shot up and resulted in a high side.

So, what I'm curious to hear is at that point, where the tire starts coming out, do you just lay it down? Or do you attempt to counter-steer and risk highsiding?

I suggest to you that the highside is linked to the throttle being closed too quickly, and not to the input to the handlebars.

 

[pt65]

As usual, there are some interesting observations/questions/remarks.

- Muscle memory:
actually only "occurs" when you are consciously doing something - slapping a hockey puck, throwing a football, swinging a baseball bat.
You can't be thinking about wether to have steak or pizza for dinner and which restaurant is the better choice for either when you're standing at home plate trying to hit ball with bat.
What you mean may be more along the lines of the subconscious foot/toe adjustment when you're leaned over hard and judging when to switch from maintaining throttle to rolling on, or the shift in movement and weight when throwing a football.

- Was I consciously accelerating hard:
No. The point is, I was distracted to the point that I did not pay attention to what I was doing and, for the conditions, I did it wrong.

That is my whole point, reminder, mantra - dont ride distracted, stay focused, etc. We're all human - the reason I wasn't in the right mindset? A hectic day, and a situation in which at that time and place I am normally always in a car.

Unusual / counter habitual situation + stress + PITA 'to do' list = distraction = Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

So, oh cynical and sarcastic guardian angel, thank you for bitch slapping me when you did, instead of waiting for someplace and time far worse.

- Was I leaned over very far?
Not at all. How many degrees? No idea. Maybe 1 o'clock? Just a normal turn / lean angle.

-The high side question?
What Enchanter said.
I've had both front and rear slide out a bit both individually and together (due to a little sand, gravel, wet) and never did a thing about it. Just rode it out. Its always happened so fast that I probably couldn't have done anything about it anyway. NOTE* this always happened in mellow to careful riding conditions, and caused by road stuff, not an aggressive throttle... well ok most of the time.

I suspect that, in very general terms, unless you're a world class racer on a track, if your rear tire slips b/c of a little too much throttle, it will either bust loose or re-grip so fast you'll just have time to notice it and continue on your way thinking, woa, that was cool/scary/fuc*ed up...
If your tire breaks out b/c of a lot too much throttle, chances are you're going down.

If you're so inclined, try riding dirt and trails. You'll get a whole new perspective on slip n slides...

 

[Lunch Box]

OP, it sounds to me like you know exactly what you did wrong. It wasn't about the temperature of the tires or the tarmac. It was about your mindset. Riding distracted is a dangerous thing, indeed. I did almost the exact same thing a few years back. 30+ years and well over 250K miles under my belt with only one prior crash on a public street. I took a right turn from a stop sign, spun up the rear and dropped it. Mine didn't slide far, probably about 5 feet, and ended up facing 180 degrees from my intended direction of travel. I jumped-up, dusted myself off, picked up the bike, checked it out, and got out of there.

Your little "woopsie" moment, like mine, should serve as a wake-up call. A cheap wake-up call, at that. Every time I start getting at all distracted, I remember that moment and either pull over or get my head on straight and focus on the task at hand.

 

[pt65]

@ Lunchbox ......yup...

aaand... in the spirit of cheap lessons - for anyone who hasn't already...get gear! for yourself and your bike.

Elbow armor in muh jacket saved me from what would have been a very painful and bloody elbow.

Sliders and spools ($ 55) saved me from replacing plastics ($400-600 ?) and maybe even a new rear brake caliper/line.

I'll take this kinda wake up call (I prefer to call it a "friendly reminder") and insurance (jacket/sliders) anyday

 

[iehawk]

- Muscle memory:
actually only "occurs" when you are consciously doing something - slapping a hockey puck, throwing a football, swinging a baseball bat.
You can't be thinking about wether to have steak or pizza for dinner and which restaurant is the better choice for either when you're standing at home plate trying to hit ball with bat.
What you mean may be more along the lines of the subconscious foot/toe adjustment when you're leaned over hard and judging when to switch from maintaining throttle to rolling on, or the shift in movement and weight when throwing a football.

Still trying to figure out why this is in Crash Analysis since it's more of kudos to the shop and having the right safety parts. Anyway, my thought is...

It's true that we think about every step/sequence in the beginning... that's the learning (muscle memorizing) part. Not to confuse between a muscle memory with a conscious intention. Slapping a hockey puck, throwing a football are the intended/conscious action. The muscle memory part is your body knowing automatically how to do it fairly well step by step so you don't have to think about it every step of the way. Example, when you think throw a ball, you just throw.

Not thinking about task at hands (distracted), then grabbing the throttle a bit too much... maybe your right hand is not familiar yet with the throttle, but there are external factors involved. Not enough sensory input, you're more used to riding in warmer weather or you're more used to a different bike's throttle feel (or distracted that you forgot you were on a different bike).

I commute home at 2-3am in the morning dry/wet on a sportbike. As much as I'm thinking about my warm bed and what to eat for 'supper', my right hand always remember how to open the throttle.

Anyway, it's a good lesson learnt indeed. Ride safe!

 

[Jbox88]

I've started riding dirt and I gotta say I can see why people suggest riding dirt can make a better rider.

My crash was cost me a total of around $300 to get everything cleaned up on the bike, except some scratches on the left fairing, which I didn't mind. I've thought about it a lot since I wasn't even doing anything "wrong" so to speak. I just had to make improvement. Mainly, don't lean hard on cold tires.

On that note, I had attempted to ride it out, but, I literally starting dragging my left side (I have the pants/boots/jacket to prove it). I counter-steered and I do believe I let off the throttle at that point...maybe thats my mistake? But I remember the bike shooting up very shaky (not sure how to describe it).

 

[DataDan]

It's true that we think about every step/sequence in the beginning... that's the learning (muscle memorizing) part. Not to confuse between a muscle memory with a conscious intention. Slapping a hockey puck, throwing a football are the intended/conscious action. The muscle memory part is your body knowing automatically how to do it fairly well step by step so you don't have to think about it every step of the way.

That's how we learn countersteering and braking, and we can learn throttle control the same way. You have to think about it at first, but after you've practiced enough, it occurs beneath the level of conscious thought. You don't have to think "press left, go left" or "SQUEEEZE the lever, don't grab it", it just happens. Same with the throttle. Practice the smooth roll-on and it becomes automatic. At a conscious level you want to accelerate, and the underlying control circuitry for the twist of the wrist [note to self: catchy phrase--might make a good book title!] produces the motion just as you've practiced.

Nick Ienatsch in Sport Riding Techniques and Lee Parks in Total Control recommend repetitive practice to develop a smooth throttle hand, both for acceleration and deceleration. It's worth trying out their drills.