First ride, first crash. Sorry OFG....

[Larell]

2000 KTM Duke 2. As the title suggests, I crashed on my very first ride. I took the MSF course and got my license. I was wearing full gear so luckily my injuries were limited to a twisted knee. Doctors appointment on Tuesday will shed more light on that, I suspect. Anyhow, on to the crash...

I was leaving a stop sign, about 3 miles into the ride. Level ground perfect conditions. For some reason when I gave it throttle and eased out the clutch, the front end came up. I closed the throttle and the front end came down. I was then halfway through the intersection. I attempted to gently reapply throttle and front end came up again?...pretty sure I forgot to clutch. Lost control and went down. First point of impact was inside of right foot, then inside right knee, then hands elbows ect. Was probably going 10 MPH. Bike went down on the right side also...probably on top of my knee.

I picked up the bike and went to the side of the road (very lightly travelled road). Put down kickstand and sat down. Kinda went in to shock but felt better eventually and was able to get back on the bike and continue to my destination (closer than home). Did my business and rode home.

I'm pretty sure the problem was throttle control but was wondering what you guys think. Any recommended drills to help me improve that? I did the same damn thing in the MSF course but was able to recover it. The bike looked fine but I decided to take it to the shop to have it checked out anyway. I expect I will have it back on Monday and hope to be able to ride again soon. At any rate, I'm embarrassed as hell but would like to turn this into a learning experience while I'm healing up. Thanks in advance for your guidance!

Larell

 

[flying_hun]

pretty sure I forgot to clutch.

The clutch can be your friend in situations like this - if you're smooth with it. I'm guessing once the front wheel came up that you're adrenaline was pumping pretty strongly. That's why it's key to practice being smooth rolling on and off the throttle and balancing the clutch at the friction point. You can work on that in an empty parking lot. That way when you do get excited you'll have muscle memory to help you out.

Regarding having it happen in MSF and being able to recover; the range bikes are usually not nearly as lively as a KTM Duke II.

It will be interesting to see what others post

 

[tankerman]

Sounds like you "froze" when things started to go wrong, recommend you practice a lot more before you go into traffic where things are much less forgiving.

 

[Enchanter]

Sounds like you "froze" when things started to go wrong, recommend you practice a lot more before you go into traffic where things are much less forgiving.

Practice what? What advice can you share that would be immediately useful to the OP?

 

[Dvs510]

First and foremost I'm glad to hear that you are ok. Like they say its not a matter of if it's a matter of when. I just think you need to practice and get a better feel on where your friction zone is on your bike. Practice makes perfect and glad to hear that you want to get back to riding!

 

[Enchanter]

First and foremost I'm glad to hear that you are ok. Like they say its not a matter of if it's a matter of when. I just think you need to practice and get a better feel on where your friction zone is on your bike. Practice makes perfect and glad to hear that you want to get back to riding!

I completely disagree.

Can you share a technique that will help the OP build the skill of locating the friction zone more easily?

Are we sure that the location of the friction zone was the issue here? Is it is possible that it the speed of the release of the clutch, coupled with the rapid application of the throttle, was more likely the culprit?

 

[CaptCrash]

Think about your bike for a moment. Big, torquey, single. If you treat the clutch like a switch it will do one of 2 things, either stall or launch. I would imagine that if you slipped into the friction zone, then got rolling, dump the clutch and hit the throttle at the same time it has a special name: Clutching up a wheelie. Once you let go of the clutch it's just a matter of too much throttle which ends in a power wheelie.

Head over to the parking lot and practice your starts and stops. Simple, easy starts that get you going. I would offer that even if you slip it into the friction zone, get going and are chugging along with the clutch fully out--a whack on the throttle will lift the front--hey, maybe that happened! You got going (too slow--chugging) and just powered up a wheelie.

In the end, practicing getting going and easing into the revs will help.

 

[silverbelt]

First and most importantly, glad your OK. Next up, take solace that KTM's Duke line up have caught many a rider by surprise. That little LC4 is not for beginners.

You need to practice throttle control. I don't know if your having trouble finding the friction zone, or revving too high without feathering the clutch to find the right balance. Its easy to wheelie the Duke, but it shouldn't come up twice on you like that, especially after the front came back down.

Easy on the throttle until you learn where the friction zone is and how to modulate it from a stop. Perhaps you should try adjusting the clutch lever, on some bikes, the clutch doesn't engage until the last 1/8th of travel.

 

[Enchanter]

Think about your bike for a moment. Big, torquey, single. If you treat the clutch like a switch it will do one of 2 things, either stall or launch. I would imagine that if you slipped into the friction zone, then got rolling, dump the clutch and hit the throttle at the same time it has a special name: Clutching up a wheelie. Once you let go of the clutch it's just a matter of too much throttle which ends in a power wheelie.

Head over to the parking lot and practice your starts and stops. Simple, easy starts that get you going. I would offer that even if you slip it into the friction zone, get going and are chugging along with the clutch fully out--a whack on the throttle will lift the front--hey, maybe that happened! You got going (too slow--chugging) and just powered up a wheelie.

In the end, practicing getting going and easing into the revs will help.

First and most importantly, glad your OK. Next up, take solace that KTM's Duke line up have caught many a rider by surprise. That little LC4 is not for beginners.

You need to practice throttle control. I don't know if your having trouble finding the friction zone, or revving too high without feathering the clutch to find the right balance. Its easy to wheelie the Duke, but it shouldn't come up twice on you like that, especially after the front came back down.

Easy on the throttle until you learn where the friction zone is and how to modulate it from a stop. Perhaps you should try adjusting the clutch lever, on some bikes, the clutch doesn't engage until the last 1/8th of travel.

Good stuff guys. Thanks!

 

[stoppie]

If you ever find yourself in that situation again with the wheel coming up and panick is there pull in the clutch and use the brakes to pull over and think about the situation and try again.

I can almost visualize what happened to you , on gas engaged ohh too much , let off , slam down, on gas again, outta control , crash.

Just my thoughts , as this has never happened to me but I can see how a new rider can get into trouble.

 

[sanjuro]

Poor throttle and clutch control, even during deceleration, can be very dangerous.

It should be fairly obvious that a too-quick of an acceleration will cause the front end to lift up. However, your front wheel coming off the ground is not necessarily dangerous, otherwise wheelies would result in a crash. Even with the front wheel off the ground, bikes are stable at steady speed.

In your case, you performed what they actually teach in beginner wheelie classes, the pop-clutch, which a rider revs the engine to a moderate level with the clutch in, then quickly release the clutch. By suddenly putting all the engine revolutions into rear wheel rotation, the bike rapidly accelerates and lifts up the front end. (P.S. I don't recommend pop-clutch wheelies for you )

However a quick acceleration could cause the rear wheel to drift out-of-control, which I believe was part of the reason why you crashed.

It sounds like you are slightly unsure what you did just before you crashed, so it could have been a combination of bad throttle control and possibly lever handling, i.e. grabbing the brake lever or mistaking it for the clutch.

One thing to recognize at slow speeds is how to control your bike with the clutch. You mentioned several times about using the throttle. Did you know that by quickly rolling off the throttle, you are applying rear braking forces? In the right circumstance, it is called engine braking, but with motorcycles you have careful when you roll off the throttle.

In comparison, cars are relatively heavy with 4-wheel stability, coming off the gas pedal will result in a smooth deceleration. But with a motorcycle, rolling off the throttle incorrectly could cause a rear wheel lock-up.

It is not clear in your description that you did roll off the throttle quickly before your crash. However, if you had grabbed your clutch lever, it cuts all engine forces to the rear wheel, like if you had shifted into neutral.

When I am potentially in an emergency braking situation, such as when I am lane splitting, I will cover both the clutch as well as the brake levers so I can cut the engine power to ensure smooth braking.

While I do not think you caused your crash because of rolling off the throttle too quickly, it does highlight your need to practice clutch and throttle control.

When I accelerate from a stop, whether I apply light or heavy throttle, I control my acceleration with the clutch. I use the clutch in conjunction with my throttle, so if I have too much throttle, I will "ride" the clutch, i.e. have the lever pulled in slightly, until my bike is moving fast enough to match engine speed.

And if I was to accelerate too quickly, a definite concern on liter bikes like mine or even a motard with a tall first gear, like your Duke, I can quickly grab the clutch to cut engine power with less deleterious effect than hard braking or rolling off the throttle.

 

[smm]

Relative to the 250 that you took the MSF on, you've got about 5x the horsepower to deal with. Two suggestions:

1. Repeat that very first clutch engagement drill. Park the bike facing up hill. With no throttle try slowly releasing the clutch until you feel the bike nudge forward an inch or two. Slowly release clutch, roll back. Put a brick behind the rear wheel if you don't have a curb. Then repeat with a little throttle. Then repeat with more throttle and rear brake (usual recipe for starting on a hill). You don't need to move the bike more than a foot or two forward during any of this.

2. Find a long empty neighborhood street with lots of stop signs and drive up and down until you get thoroughly bored. Repeat but with hills.

 

[Tim-That CX Guy]

Just out of curiosity, what was your seating (riding) position at the time of the front end launches?

I have been a street bike rider my whole life, and when I sat down to get the sag set on my new DRZ-SM, I was told in no uncertain terms by supermoto racers that I was sitting on it wrong.

I had all of my ass weight to the rear of the seat (kind of like you would sit on a sport tourer). After experimenting with riding positions this weekend (the first time I have back-road ridden the bike), I discovered that sliding forward to the "knackers on the tank" position kept the bike's front end feeling more planted at take-off.

This information was all new to me (and I have been riding for 25 years), so I imagine that no one told you anything about this prior to you taking that first ride?

(I will state for the record, that clutch and throttle skill is a more likely culprit, but it is amazing how much differently the motards handle when you shift that weight forward)

 

[Larell]

Relative to the 250 that you took the MSF on, you've got about 5x the horsepower to deal with. Two suggestions:

1. Repeat that very first clutch engagement drill. Park the bike facing up hill. With no throttle try slowly releasing the clutch until you feel the bike nudge forward an inch or two. Slowly release clutch, roll back. Put a brick behind the rear wheel if you don't have a curb. Then repeat with a little throttle. Then repeat with more throttle and rear brake (usual recipe for starting on a hill). You don't need to move the bike more than a foot or two forward during any of this.

2. Find a long empty neighborhood street with lots of stop signs and drive up and down until you get thoroughly bored. Repeat but with hills.

That sounds like exactly what I need to do! I already have a place in mind too...my driveway!

 

[Larell]

Just out of curiosity, what was your seating (riding) position at the time of the front end launches?

I have been a street bike rider my whole life, and when I sat down to get the sag set on my new DRZ-SM, I was told in no uncertain terms by supermoto racers that I was sitting on it wrong.

I had all of my ass weight to the rear of the seat (kind of like you would sit on a sport tourer). After experimenting with riding positions this weekend (the first time I have back-road ridden the bike), I discovered that sliding forward to the "knackers on the tank" position kept the bike's front end feeling more planted at take-off.

This information was all new to me (and I have been riding for 25 years), so I imagine that no one told you anything about this prior to you taking that first ride?

(I will state for the record, that clutch and throttle skill is a more likely culprit, but it is amazing how much differently the motards handle when you shift that weight forward)

Thanks for reminding me as I forgot to mention that. Yeah, I was all stretched out like on a standard bike. Was wondering to myself "Whats up with this faux dirtbike seat?" Sitting on the side of the road, had a flashback to a few weeks earlier when I was sitting on a DRZ400SM as well. Seller basically told me the same thing you said about getting my weight all way to the front. After the crash thats exactly what I did on the Duke. Now I just have to make it muscle memory....

 

[Larell]

Thanks guys for all of the sage advice. And thanks moderators for keeping people on topic!

Yeah someone telling me to practice more before hitting the streets is not helping me. I mean hell, I've got to "hit the streets" to get to a parking lot in the first place!

So what I was really looking for were suggestions on what to practice and HOW to practice it.Thanks a ton!

The one thing I dont have a "way forward" on right now, is how to get off the bike if this happens again. Any advice on things to keep in mind when you have an impending crash? For instance, one thing I always keep in mind on my mountain bike is that once the situation is beyond recovery, I clip out of the pedals. Anything like that for a motorcycle??

 

[GAJ]

What I do with new riders is find a nice large flat area to practice clutch engagement and feel for the "friction zone" and to learn how to use the clutch properly to progressively apply power to the rear wheel without stalling or popping a wheelie.

We're lucky around here that the Santa Rosa Fairgrounds parking lot is where MSF is taught and the markers for drills are all on the pavement and you can have moto access to it pretty much any time it's not being used.

I had my MSF graduate newbie friend who was jerky on my DRZ400SM in first gear actually start from a dead stop in 2nd...this demands the rider use more throttle and clutch slip but with far less chances of a wheelie; the worst thing that happens is a stall or three.

Once he mastered 2nd gear starts I had him do them in 3rd from a dead standstill and, believe it or not, in 4th as well.

He mastered all those gears, (the DRZ has a pretty stout clutch so no worries...not sure about the KTM), and when he got back to trying it in 1st he was far far smoother and never stalled or wheelied from a standing start in the 1 1/2 years we've been riding together since.

Hope that helps.

 

[Larell]

Yes that is a huge help, thanks! I will try starts in 2nd and 3rd as well. Not really worried about the clutch...worried bout learning! I can get a new clutch.

 

[Larell]

stoppie,
Thanks bro. I think you hit the nail on the head! I give my Marines this same advice...slow the situation down to a pace you are comfortable with. Wait till you get your plan together and then enage when you are ready. Thanks!

sanjuro,
Appreciate you addressing the role of the clutch as it applies to motorcycling. I watched myself in my car this morning (07 Vette) as the roads were a little wet and my tires were cold. I noticed that it is MUCH easier to control acceleration from a start with the clutch...much smoother and more accurate. I was doing this without even thinking. So glad I became a member of this forum! Keep the good advice comming!!

 

[wstick1]

SOmething that I haven't seen mentioned here is wrist position. CHeck it. My guess is your throttle wrist was too high/higher than your knuckles. SO, as the bike lunges forward, you end up rolling the throttle even more. You manage to roll off, but when it slams down you are still death gripping, and so you push on the bars to keep your face from hitting the bars, and viola, roll on throttle again. I see it all the time in MSF class.

Sometimes this is made worse by the brake lever being improperly adjusted also. If you have to reach up,over, and down the throttle, to get to the brake lever, you will have a tendency to have a high throttle wrist. So make sure your levers are adjusted to compliment a nice flat wrist position.