Lowside on a right turn

[stangmx13]

Regarding the comments about crashes while on the throttle, a big contributing factor is that when people get on the throttle too soon the bike wants to increase it's turning radius. People compensate for this by adding more lean to keep the bike turning.

Saying that the addition of throttle does not reduce the size of the contact patch enough to cause a crash can be true..... IF we can assume that the rider is NOT adding more lean as they add throttle.

we arent certain of any of this from the OP.

we know that adding lean angle while coasting or holding a constant speed will likely cause the front tire to lose traction first. but i think tzrider will contest that adding lean angle while on the throttle some amount will cause the rear end to break loose first. i disagree w/ the conditions in which thatll happen. thats the primary thing weve been talking about for a few days.

 

[latindane]

From the OP:

I began to roll back on the throttle, and initiated my turn in.

and then

...Turn in and throttle were about simultaneous. Stayed on the throttle until the front end lost traction and I realized I was going down, but it was a very gradual roll on.

My interpretation of these is that he rolled on past "maintenance throttle" fairly early, so he was in fact accelerating as he added lean angle.

Here's how I see it: If you finish braking before turn-in, your forks will tend to compress in tact with adding lean angle, as the front tire is asked to take on cornering forces. Accelerating at the same time will work against this.

 

[nobadwaves]

As a newb, reading this makes my mind explode. You guys definitely know what you're talking about. I look forward to gleaning more knowledge when I can. Either way, glad the OP was uninjured and the bike was OK.

 

[danate]

Good discussion and points on both sides.

My 2 cents is that while being on the brakes may provide more traction for turning, it does add a touch more risk on the street where there are more hazards and unknowns. For my normal around town riding, I prefer to set my lean angle initially as I come off the brakes and be maintaining my throttle through the turn rather than on the brakes during the turn. Being on the front brake when you hit a slick spot gives a much higher chance of losing the front vs being on the gas. It may not be the fastest way through the turn, but I feel it's the safest when conditions are unknown.

As for the OP, I also get the feeling he may have added both throttle and lean simultaneously, losing traction in the front.

 

[stangmx13]

watching GP this weekend made me think of this thread again. quite a few riders have crashed by tucking the front while accelerating. Iannone's Fri crash, Pol's Q2 crash, and more. they all have said something like "i pushed the front while opening the throttle".

all that further reminded me that this has been the complaint about the Michelin's that GP is going to run next year. the rear tire is sooo good that the riders just wind more and more throttle on until the front tire folds on corner exit. reports suggest that practically all the crashes during testing on Michelins have been from that.

Good discussion and points on both sides.

My 2 cents is that while being on the brakes may provide more traction for turning, it does add a touch more risk on the street where there are more hazards and unknowns. For my normal around town riding, I prefer to set my lean angle initially as I come off the brakes and be maintaining my throttle through the turn rather than on the brakes during the turn. Being on the front brake when you hit a slick spot gives a much higher chance of losing the front vs being on the gas. It may not be the fastest way through the turn, but I feel it's the safest when conditions are unknown.

As for the OP, I also get the feeling he may have added both throttle and lean simultaneously, losing traction in the front.

im not sure we even got much to talking about risk. but there is one thing we gotta be careful of when talking about throttle. "on the gas/throttle" means different things to diff people. its better to be explicit with "accelerating" or "constant speed".

heres my "risk" list for adding lean angle at corner entry from least risk to most risk:
1. constant speed
2. on the brakes
3. accelerating
4. engine braking

but i question the difference between 1 and 2. in certain situations, id switch the order. but i made the list for all situations, so i went w/ that.

 

[afm199]

Today Lorenzo probably lost the world championship with an exit crash.

 

[stangmx13]

Today Lorenzo probably lost the world championship with an exit crash.

nah, he crashed on corner entry. he had just added lean angle to enter T15 and was about mid-track when the rear tire let go just a little. the on-board of the crash is at 56:30 of the race vid on the feed.

 

[afm199]

nah, he crashed on corner entry. he had just added lean angle to enter T15 and was about mid-track when the rear tire let go just a little. the on-board of the crash is at 56:30 of the race vid on the feed.

Yah, 14/15 are so close it looked like exit, but it was entry.

 

[Saxon]

for moderate to fast turns, i don't think I touch the throttle until I am past the apex, i am a late braker or trail braker.

These "steps"on turning are guides for me, but I don't get hung up on them because everyone is a little different in cornering technique.

A good example is listening to the throttle on different professional moto racers as they go through a turn.

More than one way to do things!