Lowsided on Redwood Road

[Cookie Monster]

I recently lowsided on Redwood Road (Sunday, 7/3) and am finally getting around to posting about it here. I've finally gotten the bulky splint off my hand and am in an actual cast so I can type at a slightly faster than snail's pace now.

I had gone up to Redwood Road with another BARFer to test out his motorcycle that I was interested in buying. I rode there on my FJ-09, and we swapped bikes on Redwood so I could get a better feel for his bike under the conditions I wanted to ride it in.

After a couple laps up and down the road (up to Pinehurst and back), we switched bikes again, so I was back on my FJ-09. Since I had done a couple laps of the road and had ridden it the day before, I thought I had in general a decent idea of the road and started pushing faster. I had intentionally left a gap between me and other riders so I wouldn't feel obligated to try and keep up and could ride at my own pace. Having ridden with others earlier on I noticed I wasn't riding as well as I would have liked, so I let the other riders go in front so I could ride more or less on my own. Traffic otherwise was very little, much less than I was anticipating.

While riding back down (from Pinehurst to Castro Valley), I noticed that I was consistently dragging my pegs around turns. I felt like I wasn't going that fast, or at least in over my head, so I kept the pace up. I was leaning my upper body into the turns so my head was near my inside mirror, I was looking through each turn and I was working on going from the outside of the lane into the apex and then back out. However, I don't think I was all that smooth on the throttle and I definitely did not try weighting the outside peg and keeping my foot light on the inside peg. That is still a new concept for me.

The corner that I crashed on was a right hand turn about 2.5 miles from the bottom of the Castro Valley side (right where the Rd is in the picture below):

As I approached the corner, I finished all my braking in a straight line as I had done for all (or most) of the corners beforehand, let off the brakes, and leaned in. In my mind, I did not enter the turn too fast and was confident I'd make it around the corner. I would guess I entered the turn around 45 mph, but I was not looking at my instruments the entire ride so I can't be sure. I also did not target fixate on anything. All I remember was turning in, hearing the pegs grind, hitting a bump, and then sliding alongside the bike. I ended up in the shoulder of the oncoming lane, and thankfully there were no cars coming in either direction as I crashed. The cars that did come through thankfully did so slowly and were able to stop before hitting my bike.

My own analysis:

What I did right:

Wear all my gear. Even after sliding on the ground for a while I ended up with 0 cuts and abrasions, though my jacket, pants and armor got ripped up. I did end up with a fractured left hand (not sure how as I lowsided on the right) and a fractured right foot. Apparently even Alpinestars boots are no match for a 470 lb touring bike falling on your foot.

What I did wrong:

Pretty much everything else. Even though I didn't feel like it, I was definitely riding WAY over my head. I definitely knew I was pushing it a bit but didn't think I was riding hard enough to crash.

I also wasn't heeding the warning signs when my pegs were dragging on all the corners beforehand. I was initially blaming the giant peg feelers for causing my crash because the first thing one of the riders who helped me get my bike to the side of the road said was that I had to lose the feelers and that was the cause of my crash. Thinking back on it, though, if I had weighted the pegs properly by putting more weight on the outside peg, not only would I have needed less lean angle for the turn, but if I did drag the inside peg, it would have had less weight on it and would have folded up out of the way (I'm guessing, maybe someone can correct me on that).

The biggest mistake I made was definitely pushing my limits on a new road. I had ridden Redwood Road once before, the day before the accident and had no business trying to go that fast. Had I known the road better, I would have known that turn is pretty bumpy and thus going in at max lean angle is probably a bad idea. While I was standing next to my bike watching cars drive past, most of them chirped their tires a bit while going over the bumps through the corner, and they weren't driving that fast. Had I known the road better, I would have slowed way down there, and that was a huge mistake on my part.

I think part of the reason I was riding like an idiot was because I had just gotten off the bike I was test riding, which was a supermoto, and that bike was much easier and much more forgiving to throw into corners. Trying to ride a touring bike like a supermoto probably bit me in the ass hard as well...

In the end I think I got pretty lucky that I escaped with a few fractures while learning an important lesson about not riding like a dickhead on the street, especially way over my head like I was. Thanks for reading and I'd appreciate any advice or insight you may have (or you can just call me an idiot too ).

 

[Aware]

I suspect that at the pace you were going, the bump would have taken you out regardless.

Weighting the outside peg: I'm not certain that it guarantees less lean angle, but it does give greater traction by driving the tyres a little more into the road, vs weight on the inside offering a greater horizontal force (less grip). And if you have all your weight on the inside peg, the rear might skip when you dig in, which seems to be what you are describing.

Taking off the feelers: well, honestly I'm not sure how wise it is to remove them. Why do you think they are called feelers? You didn't fall off because of the feelers really , you fell off because you were going too fast, and you had a canyon-load of warning about that from the feelers, which you ignored.

Sounds like you know what happened - you hit a bump mid-corner on a (relatively) strange road - so good for you for seeing that.

So what are you going to concentrate on so you can ride smarter, not just faster?

 

[Smash Allen]

You have most of it covered Cookie, I feel like you have a good grasp of what happened and how to prevent it in the future.

I agree that weighting the inside peg contributed to your lowside. If you had weight on the outside peg and gripped the tank with your outside leg it's possible you would have made it over the bumps. This is under the assumption that your rear lost traction.

If your front lost traction I would say that trail braking to the apex would have kept the contact patch better planted over the bumps.

Were you on the gas yet? Or were you coasting leaned over going over bumps?

 

[Darkness!]

Raga, from your description it sounds like there were a couple of things that might have contributed to the crash. Both the weighting of your feet and it seems like the suspension was not loaded for max grip. You said that you had finished braking and then leaned the bike over, seems that without being on the throttle the rear would be somewhat unweighted and weight bias would mostly on the front wheel with the significantly smaller contact patch. Then your peg feelers hits, then came a bump in the road. Does that sound about right? If it is, then yeah, you probably lost the rear tire. Partly because of the bump and unweighted rear tire, or peg feeler digging in, but mostly because (as you yourself pointed out) you were trying to ride a sport touring bike like a much lighter, longer travel sumo...lesson learned. Relatively cheaply too...heal up man. Jackie was saying you're trying to drive with your left foot? A little heel toe action? You dork! You want a body cast?

 

[Honey Badger]

I think you have the generality of your incident well covered. The only other thing I would suggest that may have helped, but may be something you'll need to train yourself to do (starting at a slower pace of course) is to really support yourself with your lower body, while keeping your upper body turned into the corner (which will naturally have you supported by your outside leg).

The key here is to be super light with your hands after initiating the lean - that will allow you to lift your butt slightly off the seat as soon as you hit bumps like that, and being light on the bars will allow the tires to track where they need to.

RWR is rough to ride quickly if you're a little stiff on the bike. Not a road to max out your available lean, either, as far too often cars decide your lane is available to them, and you may need to suddenly adjust your line tighter - if you're dragging pegs regularly, that option is removed from your escape options.

 

[KittenMeat]

i know the part of redwood you're talking about. On my big squishy ADV bike, I try to slow down because the travel on my susp makes easy work of it, while my friends on sportier bikes will bounce around behind me. It's a nasty little bit and even though I know it's there, the few bumps I'm thinking of still feel like they take my by surprise.

I always leave a little reserve on the street for gravel or, like the other day, if some knucklehead decides to leave their hose on in the yard in the middle of a downhill twisty corner.

 

[latindane]

My two cents:

Try to work on body position to minimize lean angle. Grinding pegs should be a rarity when street riding; you are leaving yourself little room for correction. If you happen to need a bit extra lean you might end up hitting hard parts, which is a no-go (don't ask me how I know).

 

[Enchanter]

One question: You mention and outside-inside (apex) - outside path of travel. Where were you placing the apex of the turns? Early, center, or late?

The motorcycle was communicating to you in multiple corners prior to the corner where you crashed. Dragging the pegs is an indicator that you were riding with little to no reserve. To state the obvious, this is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing on the street.

There are multiple ways to stop scraping your pegs. Slow down, alter your body position, plan a different line through the turn, or correctly set-up suspension will all help (by themselves, or all combined).

In the end, I submit that while you can learn better technique(s), as you mentioned, this was primarily caused by a lapse in judgment. Use superior judgement to avoid the need for superior skills. You should still learn new skills in case you need them, but if you use the new skills to increase your speed, you haven't lowered your risk at all.

 

[Smash Allen]

Use superior judgement to avoid the need for superior skills. You should still learn new skills in case you need them, but if you use the new skills to increase your speed, you haven't lowered your risk at all.

Thanks for that, always a good reminder

 

[Cookie Monster]

One question: You mention and outside-inside (apex) - outside path of travel. Where were you placing the apex of the turns? Early, center, or late?

The motorcycle was communicating to you in multiple corners prior to the corner where you crashed. Dragging the pegs is an indicator that you were riding with little to no reserve. To state the obvious, this is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing on the street.

There are multiple ways to stop scraping your pegs. Slow down, alter your body position, plan a different line through the turn, or correctly set-up suspension will all help (by themselves, or all combined).

In the end, I submit that while you can learn better technique(s), as you mentioned, this was primarily caused by a lapse in judgment. Use superior judgement to avoid the need for superior skills. You should still learn new skills in case you need them, but if you use the new skills to increase your speed, you haven't lowered your risk at all.

I was honestly just trying to hit the inside of the turn and then track out. I wasn't paying attention to early vs center vs late apexing.

Not that I am trying to blame anything other than myself, but I do wonder if the suspension was too stiff for that road. I feel like I got pogo'ed off the bike instantly.

I will definitely slow down and keep my riding within my comfort zone from now on. I'm planning on going to more track days so I will save my thrills for that. I think part of the problem is I've always been a very aggressive driver in my car and that translated to how I ride on a motorcycle.

 

[NudeMischief]

I recently lowsided on Redwood Road (Sunday, 7/3) and am finally getting around to posting about it here. I've finally gotten the bulky splint off my hand and am in an actual cast so I can type at a slightly faster than snail's pace now.

I had gone up to Redwood Road with another BARFer to test out his motorcycle that I was interested in buying. I rode there on my FJ-09, and we swapped bikes on Redwood so I could get a better feel for his bike under the conditions I wanted to ride it in.

After a couple laps up and down the road (up to Pinehurst and back), we switched bikes again, so I was back on my FJ-09. Since I had done a couple laps of the road and had ridden it the day before, I thought I had in general a decent idea of the road and started pushing faster. I had intentionally left a gap between me and other riders so I wouldn't feel obligated to try and keep up and could ride at my own pace. Having ridden with others earlier on I noticed I wasn't riding as well as I would have liked, so I let the other riders go in front so I could ride more or less on my own. Traffic otherwise was very little, much less than I was anticipating.

While riding back down (from Pinehurst to Castro Valley), I noticed that I was consistently dragging my pegs around turns. I felt like I wasn't going that fast, or at least in over my head, so I kept the pace up. I was leaning my upper body into the turns so my head was near my inside mirror, I was looking through each turn and I was working on going from the outside of the lane into the apex and then back out. However, I don't think I was all that smooth on the throttle and I definitely did not try weighting the outside peg and keeping my foot light on the inside peg. That is still a new concept for me.

The corner that I crashed on was a right hand turn about 2.5 miles from the bottom of the Castro Valley side (right where the Rd is in the picture below):

As I approached the corner, I finished all my braking in a straight line as I had done for all (or most) of the corners beforehand, let off the brakes, and leaned in. In my mind, I did not enter the turn too fast and was confident I'd make it around the corner. I would guess I entered the turn around 45 mph, but I was not looking at my instruments the entire ride so I can't be sure. I also did not target fixate on anything. All I remember was turning in, hearing the pegs grind, hitting a bump, and then sliding alongside the bike. I ended up in the shoulder of the oncoming lane, and thankfully there were no cars coming in either direction as I crashed. The cars that did come through thankfully did so slowly and were able to stop before hitting my bike.

My own analysis:

What I did right:

Wear all my gear. Even after sliding on the ground for a while I ended up with 0 cuts and abrasions, though my jacket, pants and armor got ripped up. I did end up with a fractured left hand (not sure how as I lowsided on the right) and a fractured right foot. Apparently even Alpinestars boots are no match for a 470 lb touring bike falling on your foot.

What I did wrong:

Pretty much everything else. Even though I didn't feel like it, I was definitely riding WAY over my head. I definitely knew I was pushing it a bit but didn't think I was riding hard enough to crash.

I also wasn't heeding the warning signs when my pegs were dragging on all the corners beforehand. I was initially blaming the giant peg feelers for causing my crash because the first thing one of the riders who helped me get my bike to the side of the road said was that I had to lose the feelers and that was the cause of my crash. Thinking back on it, though, if I had weighted the pegs properly by putting more weight on the outside peg, not only would I have needed less lean angle for the turn, but if I did drag the inside peg, it would have had less weight on it and would have folded up out of the way (I'm guessing, maybe someone can correct me on that).

The biggest mistake I made was definitely pushing my limits on a new road. I had ridden Redwood Road once before, the day before the accident and had no business trying to go that fast. Had I known the road better, I would have known that turn is pretty bumpy and thus going in at max lean angle is probably a bad idea. While I was standing next to my bike watching cars drive past, most of them chirped their tires a bit while going over the bumps through the corner, and they weren't driving that fast. Had I known the road better, I would have slowed way down there, and that was a huge mistake on my part.

I think part of the reason I was riding like an idiot was because I had just gotten off the bike I was test riding, which was a supermoto, and that bike was much easier and much more forgiving to throw into corners. Trying to ride a touring bike like a supermoto probably bit me in the ass hard as well...

In the end I think I got pretty lucky that I escaped with a few fractures while learning an important lesson about not riding like a dickhead on the street, especially way over my head like I was. Thanks for reading and I'd appreciate any advice or insight you may have (or you can just call me an idiot too ).

I totally agree with your statements on the scenario.

I do have some insight that may not have been mentioned.

From the initial switch I noticed you had rode with great confidence, when we got to redwood road you Immediately took off.

From the very first lap you (on my supermoto) were entering most if not all turns at or near 45 mph and exiting at around 60 mph. Although I was still in MY comfort zone even on your FJ09 able to easily follow you keeping that 2-3 bike length gap behind you, I was surprised with your initial pace and even brought it up.

I myself have been a regular rider on RR and very familiar with the turns.
You did mention to me that you rode redwood road the day previous, and for a rider not familiar with the road, you were taking very good lines , and I felt you were a skilled rider that I didn't have to worry about the pace you were going.

By the second lap you upped the pace, entering almost every turn at or above 55 mph and exiting at 70-75 mph, although I was still keeping the 3 bike length gap behind you I felt the FJ09 was at its limits, scraping foot peg feelers to the point I had my foot out like a supermoto through a couple turns (not all).

Mind you my supermoto has front and rear suspension work setup for an approximate 175 lb aggressive canyon rider, you being slightly over that weight made it slightly soft sprung but well balanced and your FJ09 although you had it dialed for your weight it felt very stiff for my weight listed above, It may have been too stiff for redwood road or too stiff in general.

A possible Contributing Factor not listed: There was Another rider I am sure you remember when we finally switched bikes back when we were done riding, there was another Orange supermoto rider that was going to ride back toward castro valley with us, I took lead, he took behind me and you trailing behind him, I waited at the turn around spot for both of you for over 5 minutes before turning back to find a group of riders standing around you and your bike. The orange bike was nowhere to be seen.

Was this a possible factor, If I remember correct you mentioned that you passed him before the crash.

The police officer also mentioned a call in of an Orange bike fleeing the scene.

Although all of us riders played dumb with the officer when he asked if you were speeding (multiple attempts at that question btw) I do wonder if you were trying to keep ahead of him or riding at such a pace to catch up or keep up?

and now some videos.
https://youtu.be/wfr2tl31rR4 *His Very First Lap* Me following on his bike
https://youtu.be/z1WjqzirEOs *Clear Early sign*

 

[Aware]

and now some videos.
https://youtu.be/wfr2tl31rR4 *His Very First Lap* Me following on his bike
https://youtu.be/z1WjqzirEOs *Clear Early sign*[/QUOTE]

For riding an unfamiliar road. A lot of your lines (Cookie's) were worryingly poor for forward vision. I would be cautious following you.

 

[kuksul08]

and now some videos.
https://youtu.be/wfr2tl31rR4 *His Very First Lap* Me following on his bike
https://youtu.be/z1WjqzirEOs *Clear Early sign*

For riding an unfamoar road. A lot of your lines (Cookie's) were worryingly poor for forward vision. I would be cautious following you.

The guy on the motard is riding perfectly. The guy on the FJ however is nearly blowing some of the turns, a clear indication that he isn't leaning enough and not looking through the turns enough.

 

[Enchanter]

I was honestly just trying to hit the inside of the turn and then track out. I wasn't paying attention to early vs center vs late apexing.

Not that I am trying to blame anything other than myself, but I do wonder if the suspension was too stiff for that road. I feel like I got pogo'ed off the bike instantly.

I will definitely slow down and keep my riding within my comfort zone from now on. I'm planning on going to more track days so I will save my thrills for that. I think part of the problem is I've always been a very aggressive driver in my car and that translated to how I ride on a motorcycle.

Couple thoughts:
Path of travel (line selection, where you apex) has a direct link to ground clearance. Your lines were not as good as they could have been. Late apexing would have provided you with more space cushion to the oncoming lane. It also would have provided you with a better visual lead around the turns.

More than a few times your body and entire motorcycle were across the centerline. Super high risk, especially on Redwood.

You mention "riding within your comfort zone". I submit that that is exactly what you were doing right up to the instant you crashed. Comfort is not an accurate indicator of skill / safety.

I assume that you have taken the CMSP motorcycle safety course. Have you taken any additional training? Read any books? Any automotive related training or coaching?

 

[Enchanter]

The guy on the motard is riding perfectly.

Not even close to perfect.

Reminder: If it isn't crash analysis it gets deleted from the thread.

 

[FreeRyde]

Was Cookie taking the "optimal" lines, maybe not. But by his line choice and riding pace alone I cannot say that he was A: Riding above his limit or B: Apexing so badly that his crash was inevitable.

 

[kuksul08]

Not even close to perfect.

Reminder: If it isn't crash analysis it gets deleted from the thread.

I thought the guy on the FZ crashed trying to keep up with the motard? I explained why I think he crashed - outriding his skill level basically.

Next time, probably stay in your comfort zone, there is nothing to prove my good man

 

[Enchanter]

I thought the guy on the FZ crashed trying to keep up with the motard? I explained why I think he crashed - outriding his skill level basically.

Next time, probably stay in your comfort zone, there is nothing to prove my good man

No, he wasn't trying to keep up with another motorcycle.

Telling someone they were 'out riding their skill' doesn't help. Can you share skill(s) or techniques that the OP, or other readers can apply the next time they ride?

What is an indicator that someone is riding within their 'comfort zone'? What is an indicator of riding outside the comfort zone?

 

[Enchanter]

Was Cookie taking the "optimal" lines, maybe not. But by his line choice and riding pace alone I cannot say that he was A: Riding above his limit or B: Apexing so badly that his crash was inevitable.

Are you saying that those things were not contributing factors to the crash?

 

[Cookie Monster]

I totally agree with your statements on the scenario.

I do have some insight that may not have been mentioned.

From the initial switch I noticed you had rode with great confidence, when we got to redwood road you Immediately took off.

From the very first lap you (on my supermoto) were entering most if not all turns at or near 45 mph and exiting at around 60 mph. Although I was still in MY comfort zone even on your FJ09 able to easily follow you keeping that 2-3 bike length gap behind you, I was surprised with your initial pace and even brought it up.

I myself have been a regular rider on RR and very familiar with the turns.
You did mention to me that you rode redwood road the day previous, and for a rider not familiar with the road, you were taking very good lines , and I felt you were a skilled rider that I didn't have to worry about the pace you were going.

By the second lap you upped the pace, entering almost every turn at or above 55 mph and exiting at 70-75 mph, although I was still keeping the 3 bike length gap behind you I felt the FJ09 was at its limits, scraping foot peg feelers to the point I had my foot out like a supermoto through a couple turns (not all).

Mind you my supermoto has front and rear suspension work setup for an approximate 175 lb aggressive canyon rider, you being slightly over that weight made it slightly soft sprung but well balanced and your FJ09 although you had it dialed for your weight it felt very stiff for my weight listed above, It may have been too stiff for redwood road or too stiff in general.

A possible Contributing Factor not listed: There was Another rider I am sure you remember when we finally switched bikes back when we were done riding, there was another Orange supermoto rider that was going to ride back toward castro valley with us, I took lead, he took behind me and you trailing behind him, I waited at the turn around spot for both of you for over 5 minutes before turning back to find a group of riders standing around you and your bike. The orange bike was nowhere to be seen.

Was this a possible factor, If I remember correct you mentioned that you passed him before the crash.

The police officer also mentioned a call in of an Orange bike fleeing the scene.

Although all of us riders played dumb with the officer when he asked if you were speeding (multiple attempts at that question btw) I do wonder if you were trying to keep ahead of him or riding at such a pace to catch up or keep up?

and now some videos.
https://youtu.be/wfr2tl31rR4 *His Very First Lap* Me following on his bike
https://youtu.be/z1WjqzirEOs *Clear Early sign*

I actually waited at the intersection of Redwood and Pinehurst after you two left so I could have some space to myself as I knew you two would be going much faster than me and that there was no point in me trying to keep up. I saw him riding really slowly about halfway down the road so I passed him and just kept riding.

I also felt that the suspension was too stiff, especially on that road.

Couple thoughts:
Path of travel (line selection, where you apex) has a direct link to ground clearance. Your lines were not as good as they could have been. Late apexing would have provided you with more space cushion to the oncoming lane. It also would have provided you with a better visual lead around the turns.

More than a few times your body and entire motorcycle were across the centerline. Super high risk, especially on Redwood.

You mention "riding within your comfort zone". I submit that that is exactly what you were doing right up to the instant you crashed. Comfort is not an accurate indicator of skill / safety.

I assume that you have taken the CMSP motorcycle safety course. Have you taken any additional training? Read any books? Any automotive related training or coaching?

I agree that I did drift farther to the inside/DY of some left hand corners than I would have liked to. I'm so used to hugging the double yellow while driving on twisty roads that I end up doing it while riding, too, which means while my tires are on the right side of the road, the rest of the motorcycle and I are not. I have been trying to work on taking a wider line on left hand turns to not lean into the oncoming lane, but it's harder for me to visualize the line, whereas I can see the DY and end up just placing the bike as close to it as possible, which I realize is not smart at all and is something I will put much more focus on in the future to improve.

I haven't taken anything other than the MSF. I've done a couple HPDE track days in my car and one motorcycle track weekend last month.