My lowside on Rte 9

[RRrider]

Op, read everything but didn't catch how fast (or slow in this case) you were going?
...
if the speed wasn't adequate enough, could the weight without speed cause enough effect to upset the bike and cause the lowside?

Well, it didn't feel like I was pushing it and going quickly, but I was moving along fast enough for the impact to break open the engine casing, dent the wheel, and break off the frame sliders as the bike crashed underneath the railing. I was looking through the turn however and not down at the speedometer so I really don't know how fast I was going. But I don't think i was too slow for the turn.... On the otherhand, I wasn't "jamming"...I felt completely in my comfort zone ... that's a good part of what's unsettling about this.

that turn gets a lot of people... it has to do with the road surface & the fact that it's a blind decreasing radius... cold tires while gasing up for 5 minutes...no way. Poor turning technique/throttle control or going in too hot (doesn't look as tight at first glance) will take you out on that turn. I even see cars crashing through there all the time.

There was evidence of cars crashing there. The LEO began looking at a truck bumper at the site, trying to figure out where on my bike it had come from...and then he realised what it was

I'm not sure how to respond to "poor technique or throttle control"...not sure if what I do is great or poor. I thought I was smoothly and gently rolling onto maintenance throttle after having set the turn.... I have done that turn 100's of times before, so it isn't new to me.

Similarly, not sure how to react to "coming in too hot". It didn't feel too hot. I didn't have any adrenaline spike, or "oh shit" feeling whatsoever. I had more of the "yea, I'm in the turn" feeling. And then the front tire just gently let go. I don't think I eased off or chopped the throttle nor did I go for brakes. I thought everything was going well, and I was looking for the exit to start the pick the bike up and accelerate phase of the turn.

Can you share any skill or technique that would help avoid crashing in that turn?

I assume this is aimed at GPRacer...and indeed, I'm interested in this answer too.

I accept that I must have done something wrong, and I would love to know what it is so that I can avoid it going forward!!! much better than waiting for the next gravity gust to come along and pull my front tire into a low side at some random, even more dangerous, turn!

As we all know from seeing pictures and video's of ourselves, what we THINK we are doing and how we THINK we look often varies dramatically from what we are ACTUALLY doing and how we ACTUALLY look. You know, the "Man I almost dragged my knee in that turn" followed up with a GotBlueMilk picture of your knee safely 12" off the ground and your pucks in absolutely no danger of getting scraped :lol

 

[Spec-ECU]

Rich, just be cognizant of the fact that handlebars provide more leverage than clip-ons, since you will be jumping into and out of one whenever you switch between your BMW and Triumph. The principles of your body position doesn't have to change, but just be aware of the difference in sensitivity to your inputs.

I know, since I used to switch between my R1 and old Speed Triple.

 

[Ironbutt]

if the speed wasn't adequate enough, could the weight without speed cause enough effect to upset the bike and cause the lowside?

This is the first thing I thought too 'weight distribution'.

OP-> If you sit in the seat with your legs relaxed you can't feel when the bike is doing and react to it quickly.

I'm just making an educated guess here that this is what's going on. Or you're a little too 'front brake happy', or both.

Stay on your toes so when you feel the(a) slide you can power through it by pushing on one peg at a time or both at the same time. Or just go stiff like a pointer hound.. but regardless, it helps to be on your feet.

In the Marine Corps boot camp they taught us to use 'bone support' to get a steady shot; this concept easily translates to motorcycling for stability through corners.

 

[RRrider]

OP-> If you sit in the seat with your legs relaxed you can't feel when the bike is doing and react to it quickly.

... but regardless, it helps to be on your feet.

In the Marine Corps boot camp they taught us to use 'bone support' to get a steady shot; this concept easily translates to motorcycling for stability through corners.

Thx. I was definitely on my feet, of that I'm 100% certain. I like the term "bone support" - good analogy.

Rich, just be cognizant of the fact that handlebars provide more leverage than clip-ons, since you will be jumping into and out of one whenever you switch between your BMW and Triumph. The principles of your body position doesn't have to change, but just be aware of the difference in sensitivity to your inputs.

I know, since I used to switch between my R1 and old Speed Triple.

Ahhh...I didn't know you used to own a Speed Triple! That puts our last *$ conversation into context

thanks - I think this is the biggest learning for me coming out of this.

 

[Enchanter]

RRrider, I have a weird question or two for you:

I recently acquired an S1000RR and have been playing with the technology a bit and began to wonder how I will need to become more aware of my riding style and skills when swapping back to my other bikes. How about you? Is it possible that your BMW has been masking some events that, on another bike, may end quite differently? Do you alter your riding/awareness when riding less electronically controlled motorcycles?

 

[Punter]

Huge difference in the amount of leverage between clip ons and bars. Could be a factor?

I notice switching from the Tuono to either the 916 or RSV requires almost a complete reprogramming of teh muscle memory.

 

[tzrider]

RRrider, I have a weird question or two for you:

I recently acquired an S1000RR and have been playing with the technology a bit and began to wonder how I will need to become more aware of my riding style and skills when swapping back to my other bikes. How about you? Is it possible that your BMW has been masking some events that, on another bike, may end quite differently? Do you alter your riding/awareness when riding less electronically controlled motorcycles?

I'm not RRider, but do have some experience with these bikes.

When the Superbike School first switched to them, I wondered whether they would dumb down our effectiveness at teaching throttle control. In short, they haven't but have given us a tool to provide instant feedback to riders who may be making timing errors with rolling on the throttle while making lean angle changes.

I had a couple of students in Las Vegas who by mid morning on their second day of a two-day camp were going quite fast. As their speed increased into a particular hairpin, they began to low-line their way in and were then forced to add lean angle late in the turn. They were still rolling on the gas when they would make the late turn correction and I could see it when riding with them.

I mentioned it in the pit and explained that traction control was letting them get away with this, where they might not on another bike. I asked them to put their bikes back into rain mode for the next session. The rationale was that rain mode makes the throttle go very soft when the rider passes 38 degrees of lean angle. If they leaned the bike deeper late in the turn while rolling on the gas, they would feel the throttle suddenly go soft.

The students did this, felt what I wanted them to feel and the feedback from the bike told them exactly what they were doing wrong and where they were doing it. They cleaned up their corner entry the very next lap and I didn't see them make the error again.

 

[RRrider]

RRrider, I have a weird question or two for you:

I recently acquired an S1000RR and have been playing with the technology a bit and began to wonder how I will need to become more aware of my riding style and skills when swapping back to my other bikes. How about you? Is it possible that your BMW has been masking some events that, on another bike, may end quite differently? Do you alter your riding/awareness when riding less electronically controlled motorcycles?

It's quite possible that the BMW "nanny control" masks some errors I make that have more dramatic results on a bike without such "nanny control".

I think of 3 areas where the differences can come into play:
(1) clips ons vs handlebars...discussed at length in this thread and definitely something I'm now focusing on
(2) ABS...it is obvious when ABS kicks in on the BMW and the STR didn't have ABS...but I could easily tell when ABS kicked in. I practice braking quite a bit with a goal of not feeling ABS...if I do, I am grateful for the ABS but consider it an error on my part.
(3) DTC...I don't know that I have felt DTC ever kick in. I certainly haven't felt the sudden drop in power that Andy describes above, but then again, I pretty much never ride in rain mode. I'm normally in race mode on the track and either slick or race mode on the street.

Very interested to know where your thoughts are going along these lines...?

 

[tzrider]

I'm normally in race mode on the track and either slick or race mode on the street.

I'm curious as to why you would choose slick mode on the street but not on the track.

 

[Enchanter]

Very interested to know where your thoughts are going along these lines...?

Well, I'm curious if you gave an input to the controls that the BMW would have shirked off and 'fixed' for you, but the Triumph was unable to fix for you. In other words, are you unconsciously using the technology of the BMW and that learned technique doesn't work on the other bike.

 

[RRrider]

I'm curious as to why you would choose slick mode on the street but not on the track.

I push it more at the track, and therefore I value being *really* smooth more. I believe I am able to smoothly get on the throttle easier in race mode than in slick mode. At the track, I believe that I'm closer to the edge where this could be the difference between being within the boundaries of my contact patch and exceeding the boundaries. It is only a belief however...! I actually have never tested slick mode at the track. I remember at my first CSS level 1 class (which was also my first time ever on a track), an instructor said he'd only use race mode as he was afraid he'd kill himself in slick mode. Combining that memory with Keith telling the students to use the "lower modes" (rain, sport) because getting on smoothly earlier is better than having more available power (my interpretation, not a direct quote), has actually stopped me from even trying slick at the track. Maybe I should...?

On the street, I don't feel I am that close to the boundary, and therefore if I mess up and am a bit jerky in the application of throttle, I don't fear blowing through the contact patch. The downside to slick on the street is that ABS doesn't work as well. IN race mode, abs will just kick in and stop you even if you mess up and "over brake". IN slick mode, if you mess up and over brake, the back end will fish tail on you. So if I am in serious traffic, then I'll also drop "down" to race mode, but fortunately, I rarely ride in serious traffic.

Well, I'm curious if you gave an input to the controls that the BMW would have shirked off and 'fixed' for you, but the Triumph was unable to fix for you. In other words, are you unconsciously using the technology of the BMW and that learned technique doesn't work on the other bike.

Well, I struggle with words like unconsciously because, well, if it is unconscious, then I am unaware of it. So clearly a universe of possibilities could be happening about which I'm unconscious, I just don't know how to do anything useful with that.

I can say that I consider the "nanny'ing" of the DTC and ABS to be "insurance" which i try to avoid using vs. a tool to exploit in my riding. I ride with a guy at the track, whose strategy is to "trust in traction control". He hits the apex and pins it, literally riding traction control all the way out of the turn. He's faster than me, so it definitely seems to be a winning strategy however, especially as I ride a bike without traction control as well, I am trying to use my wrist instead. What I don't know is whether or not DTC is kicking in and I'm unaware of it. I am certainly not looking at the dash to see if the light is turning on...my eyes are focused on my exit point.

I do know that last weekend, coming out of a spirited turn on my S3R, I felt the back end move a little (a small moment you could say), and that makes me think that traction control *is* helping me sometimes when I don't realise it.

[however, returning briefly to the initial crash in this thread, i don't think this was a factor in my crash as I lost the front end not the back end]

Does this make sense?

 

[RRrider]

Just a quick update. After working through a bunch of fine tuning issues at Keith Code CSS a week or so ago, my present theory is that (using CSS vernacular) after I did my quick turn, I rolled on and then held the throttle constant through the turn. I was thinking of this as maintenance throttle, but actually maintenance throttle requires a continuous roll on, not a roll on , stop and hold. So by holding the throttle constant, I was actually slowing down a bit, shifting the weight of the bike gradually forward, which cause the front contact patch to ever so slowly let go, explaining my slo-mo low side.

I'm now working on continuous rollon, which with a litre bike, means really gradual throttle control, and better corner entry speed estimation, else you pick up too much speed in the turn.

I have been playing with this the last few rides, and it has helped me regain confidence, as when I do this right, I feel solid and stable. I also think I'm entering turns a little bit slower but leaving them a little bit faster. All of this stuff is subtle but it makes a big difference.

thanks to all of you for helping me think this through (esp Lyle and Andy from CSS).

 

[FizzrGeezr]

1: Going too fast for existing conditions
but hey, we're all prone to that. Even in our cages.

2: Don't feel too bad. I ride/drive that road about 1/week. Over the years I've seen a mangled Corvette (one of a group of about 10 vettes), a motorcycle under the rail, like you did, and various other cars. As soon as they fix the rail it gets clobbered again.
My neighbor used to be the tow truck driver for that stretch of road. He knows that spot VERY well, has pulled several bikes out of the canal and many cages out of the guardrail.
For some reason that's a particularly nasty curve when leaving Saratoga.

The other Hwy 9 curve that catches a LOT of cages for some reason is coming down 9 towards Saratoga, about 1 1/2 mile below the summit.
After the TIGHT right hander, there's an easy left and then a downhill decreasing radius right hander, marked with a big Left arrow and 20 mph speed sign. Watch that right hander!

Judging by the left over flares and tire marks it gets a cage over the outside of the turn about once a month. My wife has come across three of them in the past 6 months (including a neighbor, 4 kids in the car, no one hurt).
Don't know how many bikes have gone over that one but watch out for it.

I wonder if it's target fixation on the Right Arrow which is at the beginning of the turn.
Yes, I know this is thread drift as it doesn't help analyze RRider's particular accident. However I believe it's appropriate in the context of crashing on 9.

 

[RRrider]

^^^ thanks.

as to #1, while I don't disagree (as obviously I did crash), i also feel "going too fast" is a bit of a cop out, because what is "too fast" for some clearly isn't "too fast" for others. As a thought experiment, I highly doubt that Rossi on my bike, at my speed (or probably a lot faster), and in the exact same conditions would have ended up in the rail as I did. So therefore I suspect there is a more helpful explanation that gets to a learnable technique (skill) or error to avoid...know what I mean? For example, my present "learning" is one should continuously rollon, not just rollon and then hold constant (as I did), which can lead to the slo-mo low side I experienced. This could lead to slightly slower corner entry speeds but faster corner exits (with faster route speeds / lap times overall and of course better traction in the turn and so less crashes ).

as to #2, I'll look out for that 20 mph sign. I take 9 a couple times a week these days (love the road).
thanks!

 

[iehawk]

I thought I have posted here; apparently I planned to, but never got the chance to say it. I've been meaning to ask you about this, RR, but never got the chance too (yet).

Isn't that the location where (going up 9) you go over a hump and drop a bit right before you enter the left turn?

 

[pvn.23]

I thought I have posted here; apparently I planned to, but never got the chance to say it. I've been meaning to ask you about this, RR, but never got the chance too (yet).

Isn't that the location where (going up 9) you go over a hump and drop a bit right before you enter the left turn?

From his image, I think that's the bridge with the guard rail that has been bent, smacked, smashed into many times.

 

[RRrider]

yea it's definitely that bridge! The cop picked up a fender from a car that had crashed there before I got there, and asked where on my bike this had come from...LOL! I don't remember a big bump Al....next ride together, I'll point out the exact spot for you! I think this is *before* the bump if you're talking about the bump I'm thinking of

 

[FizzrGeezr]

RRider
Indeed, you are correct about my rather nonsensical "too fast" comment. My apologies. And thanks for your polite response.

As for #2. I hope you subtly let your wife know that you're far from the first to crash there.

As for the tricky turn coming down 9 from Skyline, I double checked when I rode it last night.
The turn is exactly 1 mile below the 35 junction and is marked 25 mph.
Due to the frequency of accidents there I wonder if it's target fixation.
At any rate, I wanted to let people know that's another bad turn.