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Shooting The Unarmed Man – The Fallacy Of Modern Perception

Nitewaif said:
I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but really, how hard is it to refrain from fighting with the police? It kind of goes back to the Chris Rock video. It's idiotic, and you're not going to win. Take that shit to court later, if you think they're wrong.
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Several reasons why you're thinking is flawed.

1. You'll never get shot and get attention nor will your heirs make any cash.

2. You'll never get a mega page thread on a motorcycle forum.

3. You'd be giving up your rights and the next thing you know a tank owned by the police will drive over your azaleas and into your house to arrest you for the heck of it.
 
revnort said:
I take it officers are trained shoot to kill yes? Because they continue after the subject is incapacitated.
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No. Police are trained to neutralize the threat.

I counted maybe 8-9 shots in under 3 seconds. There's two shots there at the end that looked like it was fired when the guy was already down/rolling. In my mind those are insurance shots, but that idiot sealed his fate when he advanced towards the officers with a knife in his hand.

Good shoot in my opinion.

If he wasn't armed, then it's a different story. I wouldn't call that justified. Yes he was aggressive, body language, posture, all point towards to a fight. But officers have other options if the guy was unarmed, especially since it was a 2-on-1.
 
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Nitewaif said:
I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but really, how hard is it to refrain from fighting with the police? It kind of goes back to the Chris Rock video. It's idiotic, and you're not going to win. Take that shit to court later, if you think they're wrong.
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Both sides of this argument are very understandable. I think I posted a good example with my neighbor. Because something is stupid, does that excuse the lack of restraint from the other person? I don't like the "you did X, which means I get to do X" mentality. We should always strive for "you did X and I could do X, but I'm better than that".
 
ScorpioVI said:
No. Police are trained to neutralize the threat.

I counted maybe 8-9 shots in under 3 seconds. There's two shots there at the end that looked like it was fired when the guy was already down/rolling. In my mind those are insurance shots, but that idiot sealed his fate when he advanced towards the officers with a knife in his hand.

Good shoot in my opinion.
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I wasn't suggesting it was unwarranted. In this case I think the amount he was shot was excessive. It just highlights that they shoot to kill in all instances.

The OP has an article about the unarmed threat. Do you think the outcome would be different if the man did not have a knife? I don't.
 
ScorpioVI said:
If he wasn't armed, then it's a different story. I wouldn't call that justified. Yes he was aggressive, body language, posture, all point towards to a fight. But officers have other options if the guy was unarmed, especially since it was a 2-on-1.
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What if he grabbed your firearm and took out your eye socket by a punch?
 
}Dragon{ said:
What if he grabbed your firearm and took out your eye socket by a punch?
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The dynamics change once force is used. A guy acting aggressively, using foul language, not complying with commands, but not actually assaulting or demonstrating an intent to assault has to be treated differently from a guy who is assaulting or have already assaulted you.

Once force is used, all bets are off, in my opinion (and by no means am I an expert on these things). You can yell at me, call me names, act like a fool, but your right to do whatever you want stops when you lay a finger on me. No man has the right to assault another.
 
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ScorpioVI said:
No. Police are trained to neutralize the threat.

I counted maybe 8-9 shots in under 3 seconds. There's two shots there at the end that looked like it was fired when the guy was already down/rolling. In my mind those are insurance shots, but that idiot sealed his fate when he advanced towards the officers with a knife in his hand.

Good shoot in my opinion.

If he wasn't armed, then it's a different story. I wouldn't call that justified. Yes he was aggressive, body language, posture, all point towards to a fight. But officers have other options if the guy was unarmed, especially since it was a 2-on-1.
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I have to agree.

He was armed and approaching the officers.

The police are not required to stop a knife wielding suspect by being slashed or stabbed.

Speculating whether is he was armed or not is stupid.
 
byke said:
Assuming you're dealing with a primitive being. I was shooting in the backyard and the neighbor came over and yelled at me like a full on lunatic. Who on earth yells crazy style at someone with a gun? I should shoot him next time because it's generally considered unwise to yell at people with guns. Restraint is for people who want to die.
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If that scenario were true, then you would be someone who shouldn't have a gun.

ScorpioVI said:
The dynamics change once force is used. A guy acting aggressively, using foul language, not complying with commands, but not actually assaulting or demonstrating an intent to assault has to be treated differently from a guy who is assaulting or have already assaulted you.

Once force is used, all bets are off, in my opinion (and by no means am I an expert on these things). You can yell at me, call me names, act like a fool, but your right to do whatever you want stops when you lay a finger on me. No man has the right to assault another.
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One doesn't even have to lay a finger on another to pose an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death.
 
bojangle said:
If that scenario were true, then you would be someone who shouldn't have a gun.
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Exactly right and I see it as being very loosely similar. Laws aside, you shouldn't yell at someone with a gun and you shouldn't punch a cop. Neither are life threatening and do not warrant a lethal response, even though the fear induced paranoid mind can easily lead you to believe that person could attack and potentially kill you during the attack.
 
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the guy in the vid starts saying "shoot me, shoot me now" and advancing toward the cops that already have their weapons out, they just complied with his wishes.


what if the cops didn't have their guns drawn?

what if the cops had no weapons out?

I know everyone is going to say there are a whole lot of what ifs and at the end of the day the cops just want to get home safe, but to me it seems the cops go for the guns way to fast.
 
ScorpioVI said:
The dynamics change once force is used. A guy acting aggressively, using foul language, not complying with commands, but not actually assaulting or demonstrating an intent to assault has to be treated differently from a guy who is assaulting or have already assaulted you.

Once force is used, all bets are off, in my opinion (and by no means am I an expert on these things). You can yell at me, call me names, act like a fool, but your right to do whatever you want stops when you lay a finger on me. No man has the right to assault another.
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There is the flip side about police treatment.

Take this vid of an officer who detains a NFL player on the way to the hospital. His wife's mother is dying.

It does go both ways during the encounter.

[youtube]yQFGzaYZV2A[/youtube]
 
It just seems to me that if you are approaching someone in a threatening manner with a deadly object, odds are good that they'll defend themselves if they have the means. Doesn't matter if it's a cop or not. How many people are going to stand around and get stabbed/killed? A civilian can at least run, but it is the duty of the police to stand and neutralize the threat, lest the public be harmed by the idiot/asshole/crazy person. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


People say "it's only a knife", but I've seen some permanently debilitating and even lethal knife wounds roll into the ER.
 
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Nitewaif said:
It just seems to me that if you are approaching someone in a threatening manner with a deadly object, odds are good that they'll defend themselves if they have the means. Doesn't matter if it's a cop or not. How many people are going to stand around and get stabbed/killed? A civilian can at least run, but it is the duty of the police to stand and neutralize the threat, lest the public be harmed by the idiot/asshole/crazy person. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

People say "it's only a knife", but I've seen some permanently debilitating and even lethal knife wounds roll into the ER.
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Most people are untouched by violence, which they are fortunate.

But their opinion about self-defense is worthless.

I make this point is that if it is easy to handle one unarmed suspect, let me jump onto your back, yell crazy things, and all you need to do is get me off your back.
 
bojangle said:
One doesn't even have to lay a finger on another to pose an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death.
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I'm well aware of that. But we're talking hypotheticals about unarmed people here.
 
Nitewaif said:
It just seems to me that if you are approaching someone in a threatening manner with a deadly object, odds are good that they'll defend themselves if they have the means. Doesn't matter if it's a cop or not. How many people are going to stand around and get stabbed/killed? A civilian can at least run, but it is the duty of the police to stand and neutralize the threat, lest the public be harmed by the idiot/asshole/crazy person. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


People say "it's only a knife", but I've seen some permanently debilitating and even lethal knife wounds roll into the ER.
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Amen. Just a sampling:
Not safe for work. Blood/gore/people dying.


And an illustration of why distance is so important.
[youtube]VYl2KCdFNgo[/youtube]
 
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I've seen the carnage firsthand caused by a pair of scissors that a patient swiped from a nurse and attacked her, a doctor, and several orderlies. They were messed up pretty badly. This is why I say shoot first, ask questions later.
 
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