• There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.

Weighting the outside peg….

SFMCjohn said:
I wonder if “putting weight on the outside peg”/“apply pressure to the outside peg” is why we see the MotoGP guys take their inside foot completely off the peg and dangle their leg? are they setting up Mr Code’s pivot steering?

why they do that has been explained to me several times, but I can never remember the answer. :laughing
Click to expand...
There's a lot of physics going on with the dangle.

The primary advantage seems to be comfort. Riders want their body moved off the bike before braking. If you move really far off, taking the inside leg off can just feel better. Also, if the rider has leaned the bike over a little BEFORE turn-in, the dangle becomes even more necessary for comfort because the peg is further under the bike.

That lean before turn-in has real advantages that help lap time. This accomplishes two things that I know of:
1. It reduces the rear tire from sliding inwards (the wrong way) during braking. Braking hard while staight-up can allow the rear to pump right and left. Having it go inwards right before turn-in means you run off or crash. But a little lean will tend to make the rear pump only outwards.
2. A leaned over bike will lift the rear tire less during hard braking. This is kind of a new revelation - within the past few years. Toprak posted a YT vid about it. Conversation of angular momentum for the rear wheel and engine will resist the rear wheel lifting if the bike is leaned over. Kinda nuts, huh?

You could probably make the argument that all this IS peg weighting. It's a very poorly defined term. Are you just using the peg as your push-off point for other inputs as tzrider described? Or are you forcefully doing a single leg press into a peg as I described in my first post here? By tzrider's definition, the dangle is weighting the outside peg because some of that force from the dangling leg went to the outside peg. By my definition, it's not peg weighting because you didn't push on anything.
 
I'm not really sure I understand what the discussion is about.
If I'm at the track and coming into a left hand corner I shift my body to the left, this adds more weight to the left (inside) peg. Now I can push on my right leg to drive my right foot into the right (outside) peg.
Is this what y'all callin' weighting the outside peg?
 
stangmx13 said:
Good questions.

I doubt anyone can do 100% anything. Even with just sitting on the seat, you'll still be leaning on the tank and the bars some amount. Even if you stand on one peg, you are still leaning forward some and likely have some weight on the bars.

Define "risk of sliding out"? Is this risk "I'm at the track, I've been through this corner 40x today"? Or is it "Im in the mountains, it's cold, and ive never ridden this road before"? I think this matters a lot. On the track, I'll try to min/max everything. I'll be pushing on the inside peg for adding lean angle (sometimes), relaxing onto the seat for constant lean angles, and pushing on the outside peg for removing lean angle. Since risk of rear slide is higher on exit with the addition of throttle, that condition ends up being more weight outside peg. For the street situations, I tend not to do any of that and just kinda ride neutral.

Also, 30% bars, 60% seat (including tank), 10% pegs is probably pretty common during hard braking. The pegs are behind or almost behind your CG. They can't contribute much reaction force during braking.
Click to expand...

when you are dealing with a complicated system, unfortunately the answer is often 'it depends' :laughing

agreed with your points, if not your bedside manner :teeth you get a pass with the training you are putting yourself through :thumbup
 
stangmx13 said:
There's a lot of physics going on with the dangle.

The primary advantage seems to be comfort. Riders want their body moved off the bike before braking. If you move really far off, taking the inside leg off can just feel better. Also, if the rider has leaned the bike over a little BEFORE turn-in, the dangle becomes even more necessary for comfort because the peg is further under the bike.

That lean before turn-in has real advantages that help lap time. This accomplishes two things that I know of:
1. It reduces the rear tire from sliding inwards (the wrong way) during braking. Braking hard while staight-up can allow the rear to pump right and left. Having it go inwards right before turn-in means you run off or crash. But a little lean will tend to make the rear pump only outwards.
2. A leaned over bike will lift the rear tire less during hard braking. This is kind of a new revelation - within the past few years. Toprak posted a YT vid about it. Conversation of angular momentum for the rear wheel and engine will resist the rear wheel lifting if the bike is leaned over. Kinda nuts, huh?

You could probably make the argument that all this IS peg weighting. It's a very poorly defined term. Are you just using the peg as your push-off point for other inputs as tzrider described? Or are you forcefully doing a single leg press into a peg as I described in my first post here? By tzrider's definition, the dangle is weighting the outside peg because some of that force from the dangling leg went to the outside peg. By my definition, it's not peg weighting because you didn't push on anything.
Click to expand...

thanks for that explanation! :thumbup

I'm always embarrassed when my non-riding friends ask me why MotoGP racers do the leg dangle, and I have to admit that I don't know. :laughing

what's interesting to me now, are the guys whose foot comes off the outside peg sometimes--seems like usually in fast sweepers. Mr Canet of Moto2 comes to mind as someone you see doing that. and I think it's something you see in Moto3, also?

just seems to me that the easiest way to be sure that you're taking weight off a peg and putting it onto the other peg, is to take your foot completely off whichever peg needs less weight?

always seemed like too much work, to me, for my $10 of concentration, or however Mr Code used to describe it, taking a foot completely off a peg--but I imagine I'm just never really going fast enough for the pivot steering technique to be useful to me, or noticeable. :dunno
 
Last edited:
The most common reason for someone taking a foot off a peg mid-corner seems to be a mobility limitation due to injury or body size. Aron Canet has broken "everything" and started taking his outside leg off after injury. I think Toni Elias had the same reasons. Those riders should probably be ignored in this convo. They show what is possible, but probably not best practice for mortals.
 
stangmx13 said:
The most common reason for someone taking a foot off a peg mid-corner seems to be a mobility limitation due to injury or body size. Aron Canet has broken "everything" and started taking his outside leg off after injury. I think Toni Elias had the same reasons. Those riders should probably be ignored in this convo. They show what is possible, but probably not best practice for mortals.
Click to expand...

:thumbup

agree about the mere-mortal stuff, but the reason I like to watch the fast guys is that I think that their level of competition acts like a crucible, where the reason for some of these more esoteric riding techniques becomes more demonstrable, maybe.

watching the Dakar or Baja 1000 racers, for example, or MotoGP of course. Erzberg guys. idk. :dunno
 
Last edited:
SFMCjohn said:
:thumbup

agree about the mere-mortal stuff, but the reason I like to watch the fast guys is that I think that their level of competition acts like a crucible, where the reason for some of these more esoteric riding techniques becomes more demonstrable, maybe.

watching the Dakar or Baja 1000 racers, for example, or MotoGP of course. Erzberg guys. idk. :dunno
Click to expand...
Sometimes I see the opposite. Pros doing esoteric techniques can show how unimportant other techniques are. For ex, the leg dangle shows how unimportant pushing on the inside peg can be for corner entry. Most often, a dangling rider reaches significant lean angle before their inside leg is back on the peg. They did not use the inside peg to steer the moto at all.

It all makes sense though. The leg dangle is most often employed in long hard braking zones. Those braking zones include a lot of trailing braking, which lends itself to smoother slower turn-ins. Pushing on the pegs to cause a lean angle change is far less useful for slow turn-ins because the change is very short (in time). So don't bother pushing on the inside peg in long hard braking zones and dangle your leg instead.
 
Opening this up a little more broadly...

I have been through schools, read the books, and watched too many videos of skiing, sailing, racquetball, windsurfing, shooting, archery and riding.

Some things I have gleamed for myself:

-There is more than one way to skin a skunk. Certainly, I have to adjust my technique for age and past injuries.

-The best are not always the best teachers.

-What one "feels" is going on mechanically may not be what is actually happening.

-Techniques/methods at elite levels do not always translate to regular folks.

How I think peg weighting helps me in turns:

-I need to transfer some body mass to the inside of the turn and the weight has to to go somewhere besides my handlebars.

-My outside leg is trying to brace or make a tension point between the footpeg and tank. I can feel my right oblique muscles engaging to help lower my body left and then a little engagement upon exiting. I don't feel or think I am applying any pressure to the outside peg exiting the turn and standing the bike up.
 
Saxon said:
...

How I think peg weighting helps me in turns:

-I need to transfer some body mass to the inside of the turn and the weight has to to go somewhere besides my handlebars.

-My outside leg is trying to brace or make a tension point between the footpeg and tank. I can feel my right oblique muscles engaging to help lower my body left and then a little engagement upon exiting. I don't feel or think I am applying any pressure to the outside peg exiting the turn and standing the bike up.
Click to expand...
Well said. In part what you are describing is using your outside leg to work against the centrifugal force that is trying to move your body away from the center of the turn.
 
NVDucati said:
Well said. In part what you are describing is using your outside leg to work against the centrifugal force that is trying to move your body away from the center of the turn.
Click to expand...
I read it as exactly the opposite. Rather than using the bars to support his body leaning into the turn (more than the motorcycle) he's using his outside leg against the tank.
 
Enchanter said:
I read it as exactly the opposite. Rather than using the bars to support his body leaning into the turn (more than the motorcycle) he's using his outside leg against the tank.
Click to expand...
I think he, you and me are all in agreement. That leg's job varies through out the turn with the conditions like speed, turn degrees, and, in part, how far along you are in completing that turn. Braking in / accelerating out use up more time than being at the apex. Pirelli Tire used to sell a phone app that would track all what was going on including lean angle. Fun stuff.
 
NVDucati said:
Well said. In part what you are describing is using your outside leg to work against the centrifugal force that is trying to move your body away from the center of the turn.
Click to expand...
That force isn't felt by the rider. If there was any extra centrifugal force pushing the rider outwards of the turn, the lean angle of the moto/rider combo would change. But lean angle doesnt change without another input, so it doesn't exist for the rider. And when lean angle does change due to an input, the bike goes with you. So again, it doesn't feel like anything is pushing you outwards. If you can't feel it, you aren't having to work against it.

The direction of force the rider feels is very close to the centerline of the motorcycle. This direction is towards the contact patch and therefore towards the pegs. So all the rider weight is supported in a normal-feeling direction through the seat and pegs. The outside peg is no better or worse at supporting the rider.
 
Sportbiker said:
Talking about the leg dangle - Sylvain Guintoli is as good as an authority as it can get. Former motogp racer, WSBK champion and Suzuki development rider.
Click to expand...
Interesting point about engaging the core better. I never felt that on the bike. GP bikes are shaped differently - they are longer and the tanks are longer and custom to each rider. So I'm not surprised.

His point about moving more weight rearwards is spot on. Any weight that can be moved rearward makes a HUGE difference in how hard you can brake. I doubt the CG moves more than millimeters with the dangle, but it still likely helps because the effect feels large. Related... many trackday riders forget to keep their nuts off the tank for hard braking.
 
NVDucati said:
I think he, you and me are all in agreement. That leg's job varies through out the turn with the conditions like speed, turn degrees, and, in part, how far along you are in completing that turn. Braking in / accelerating out use up more time than being at the apex. Pirelli Tire used to sell a phone app that would track all what was going on including lean angle. Fun stuff.
Click to expand...
Yes the rider does stuff to the motorcycle approaching, entering, during, and exiting the turn. Other than that, I don't think we agree at all. I certainly disagree with your CoM / CoG comments, and the centrifugal force comment too.
 
CDONA said:
Leg dangle, watching that on tv, two days ago,
revelation happened,
Click to expand...
I have a theory on why the leg dangle popped up, but its not a popular "take" and would certainly lead to a threadjack.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top