Tesla Model 3: End of the Internal-Combustion Engine?

[Starpower]

It does not appear that a stale design is hurting sales any. The Model Y is now the top selling car in the word, EV or ICE. Q1 of this year they sold 4,600 cars a day.

 

[wazzuFreddo]

Yea, I could easily see a scenario develop where Tesla's primary business is their charging network, with the car company part becoming a vestigial hanger-on beaten down by the abject failure that is their self driving tech, continual quality control problems, and failure to update their lineup. For all of the dumb shit that Musk does, I don't hear much complaint about their charging network.

Looks like their Megapack is sold out for projects for the next 2 years.

A former coworker and I were laughing the other day how 10 years ago our 10MWhr system that we built was considered huge, now Tesla is booking 1000MWhr projects.

Many people who know the car business, including myself have had the same impression of Tesla for quite some time. And that is simply “great tech company, but a bad car company.”

I know all of you that have a Tesla are perfectly happy with it and all that. But as someone who knows the car business pretty well, I am appalled at how long Tesla has gotten away with continuing to make the same thing year after year. But, but…the Model 3 is getting some redesigned bumpers and headlights next year. Ooooooo. Big friggin deal. Other manufacturers call this a mid model refresh. And it doesn’t take them 7 years to do it. Anything that’s actually new from Tesla? What the Cybertruck? It’s been 3+ years of vaporware and broken promises so far. I don’t see that truck coming to production in any way resembling what they showed in 2019.

So what a catalog that’s getting pretty stale, and all the real car companies now rolling out lots of much better made and more inspiring vehicles in the coming year or two? Yeah it’s great for Tesla that they invested a lot in setting up this giant charging network. Because now they can just collect money off other brand vehicles. If Tesla can negotiate partnerships with all the rest of the automakers, they can just quit the car business completely and focus more on electric charging/storage solutions for the ever expanding infrastructure. I think the expression that fits well here is, you don’t make money selling razors, you make it off the razor blades.

IDK, there is some value to how different a Tesla is. I drove a Model 3 for the first time the other day and it hardly felt stale. It felt decidedly different than any car I have driven before.

And as for the whole not like a regular automotive experience, I see that as a good thing. I've ranted enough into this website about how much I hate the car buying and dealer experience. I'm fine clicking through the website and finding what I want and doing everything through there rather than sitting in some Finance Manager's office while they "add value" to my deal.

 

[byke]

I think he is objectively correct. They've been getting lots of mileage out of the same models, heck you might even say that it's just one model and the only difference, appearance-wise, is how puffy they are. Ultimately, it just doesn't matter, because people aren't bored with them yet and there's literally no need to do anything else right now. Make the same car over and over and over and just keep refining it, then when sales reflect people getting bored, do something new. What you don't want to do, is shoot your new-model wad early when it's totally unnecessary, because you'd have just wasted the impact of it. This "boring" lineup is working because they're like a harley, where you're buying an emotional intangible element, a feeling, in addition to the car. Once that feeling diminishes and impacts sales, they'll rejuvenate it with something new. In order to understand this element of the car business, one would need to look outside of the car business.

 

[Killroy1999]

It does not appear that a stale design is hurting sales any. The Model Y is now the top selling car in the word, EV or ICE. Q1 of this year they sold 4,600 cars a day.

This is why Tesla margins are so high.

There is a high amount of common parts from the Model 3 to the Model Y and that lowers cost and makes their supply chain and inventory efficient. It's a page out of lean manufacturing and is a good strategy for overall quality.

 

[TheRobSJ]

It does not appear that a stale design is hurting sales any. The Model Y is now the top selling car in the word, EV or ICE. Q1 of this year they sold 4,600 cars a day.

Tesla has been riding high for awhile because they really have had no competition at their price point for the range you get. But that’s all changing. Tesla’s market share is only gonna go one direction at this point. Other established car companies are coming out with legit competition for every vehicle in Tesla’s lineup, either right now or in the coming year or two. I’m no fan of Kia, but there are plenty of people who buy shoddy workmanship from Tesla and are happy with it, so they’d be just as happy with Kia’s EV6 which is a perfectly fine alternative to a Model Y. BMW’s i4/5/7 are very nice and can compete with both of Tesla’s sedans. Chevy Blazer EV about to go on sale in a month or two. And the Cybertruck? Ford already has their truck out with GM and Ram to release theirs soon enough.

 

[bojangle]

Looks like their Megapack is sold out for projects for the next 2 years.

A former coworker and I were laughing the other day how 10 years ago our 10MWhr system that we built was considered huge, now Tesla is booking 1000MWhr projects.



IDK, there is some value to how different a Tesla is. I drove a Model 3 for the first time the other day and it hardly felt stale. It felt decidedly different than any car I have driven before.

And as for the whole not like a regular automotive experience, I see that as a good thing. I've ranted enough into this website about how much I hate the car buying and dealer experience. I'm fine clicking through the website and finding what I want and doing everything through there rather than sitting in some Finance Manager's office while they "add value" to my deal.

Yeah, Tesla was the best car buying experience. Very easy user friendly web site. Almost as easy as buying off Amazon.

I think he is objectively correct. They've been getting lots of mileage out of the same models, heck you might even say that it's just one model and the only difference, appearance-wise, is how puffy they are. Ultimately, it just doesn't matter, because people aren't bored with them yet and there's literally no need to do anything else right now. Make the same car over and over and over and just keep refining it, then when sales reflect people getting bored, do something new. What you don't want to do, is shoot your new-model wad early when it's totally unnecessary, because you'd have just wasted the impact of it. This "boring" lineup is working because they're like a harley, where you're buying an emotional intangible element, a feeling, in addition to the car. Once that feeling diminishes and impacts sales, they'll rejuvenate it with something new. In order to understand this element of the car business, one would need to look outside of the car business.

Two models really, not including the semi or cyber truck.

The X is the SUV version of the S and the Y is the SUV version of the 3.

 

[AbsolutEnduser]

Many people who know the car business, including myself have had the same impression of Tesla for quite some time. And that is simply “great tech company, but a bad car company.”

I know all of you that have a Tesla are perfectly happy with it and all that. But as someone who knows the car business pretty well, I am appalled at how long Tesla has gotten away with continuing to make the same thing year after year. But, but…the Model 3 is getting some redesigned bumpers and headlights next year. Ooooooo. Big friggin deal. Other manufacturers call this a mid model refresh. And it doesn’t take them 7 years to do it. Anything that’s actually new from Tesla? What the Cybertruck? It’s been 3+ years of vaporware and broken promises so far. I don’t see that truck coming to production in any way resembling what they showed in 2019.

So what a catalog that’s getting pretty stale, and all the real car companies now rolling out lots of much better made and more inspiring vehicles in the coming year or two? Yeah it’s great for Tesla that they invested a lot in setting up this giant charging network. Because now they can just collect money off other brand vehicles. If Tesla can negotiate partnerships with all the rest of the automakers, they can just quit the car business completely and focus more on electric charging/storage solutions for the ever expanding infrastructure. I think the expression that fits well here is, you don’t make money selling razors, you make it off the razor blades.

I think he is objectively correct. They've been getting lots of mileage out of the same models, heck you might even say that it's just one model and the only difference, appearance-wise, is how puffy they are. Ultimately, it just doesn't matter, because people aren't bored with them yet and there's literally no need to do anything else right now. Make the same car over and over and over and just keep refining it, then when sales reflect people getting bored, do something new. What you don't want to do, is shoot your new-model wad early when it's totally unnecessary, because you'd have just wasted the impact of it. This "boring" lineup is working because they're like a harley, where you're buying an emotional intangible element, a feeling, in addition to the car. Once that feeling diminishes and impacts sales, they'll rejuvenate it with something new. In order to understand this element of the car business, one would need to look outside of the car business.

exactly. the mistake here above is that people actually want to drive toasters, they don't want development.

so sad that people have forgotten that the majority of Tesla owners are the former Pruis, volvo and etc Leaf or 3-cyl Corolla drivers!

 

[wazzuFreddo]

If I buy one I'll be going from a Supercharged Range Rover to a Model 3

 

[Killroy1999]

Looks like their Megapack is sold out for projects for the next 2 years.

A former coworker and I were laughing the other day how 10 years ago our 10MWhr system that we built was considered huge, now Tesla is booking 1000MWhr projects.



IDK, there is some value to how different a Tesla is. I drove a Model 3 for the first time the other day and it hardly felt stale. It felt decidedly different than any car I have driven before.

And as for the whole not like a regular automotive experience, I see that as a good thing. I've ranted enough into this website about how much I hate the car buying and dealer experience. I'm fine clicking through the website and finding what I want and doing everything through there rather than sitting in some Finance Manager's office while they "add value" to my deal.

Dealer networks are proving to be a liability to car manufacturers.

They typically do not get my business. I have tried to buy cars from them, but it's a bad experience and too expensive.

 

[bojangle]

exactly. the mistake here above is that people actually want to drive toasters, they don't want development.

so sad that people have forgotten that the majority of Tesla owners are the former Pruis, volvo and etc Leaf or 3-cyl Corolla drivers!

Got a source for that? I'd say you're wrong.

If I buy one I'll be going from a Supercharged Range Rover to a Model 3

I came from a BMW 3 series, which I still own.

 

[TheRobSJ]

exactly. the mistake here above is that people actually want to drive toasters, they don't want development.

so sad that people have forgotten that the majority of Tesla owners are the former Pruis, volvo and etc Leaf or 3-cyl Corolla drivers!

Oh I know very well where the old Volvo/Prius drivers have gone. The majority of oblivious and just bad drivers out there are now in Teslas.

I get it that the majority of drivers just view cars as transportation from A to B. They don’t need speed or flash. But I would imagine that a Tesla buyers isn’t a complete Luddite and does appreciate some bells and whistles. Tesla gives you a giant iPad with the ability to have the horn and speakers make fart noises or sound like an ice cream truck. Which once the novelty of that wears off after the first time you use it, means you’re stuck with a rather non luxurious experience. Other cars have things like highly adjustable massaging seats, crazy surround sound audio systems, and premium materials abound. All things you can appreciate say in day out on the commute grind.

 

[Killroy1999]

Oh I know very well where the old Volvo/Prius drivers have gone. The majority of oblivious and just bad drivers out there are now in Teslas.

I get it that the majority of drivers just view cars as transportation from A to B. They don’t need speed or flash. But I would imagine that a Tesla buyers isn’t a complete Luddite and does appreciate some bells and whistles. Tesla gives you a giant iPad with the ability to have the horn and speakers make fart noises or sound like an ice cream truck. Which once the novelty of that wears off after the first time you use it, means you’re stuck with a rather non luxurious experience. Other cars have things like highly adjustable massaging seats, crazy surround sound audio systems, and premium materials abound. All things you can appreciate say in day out on the commute grind.

Bloomberg is redoing the 2019 Tesla owner survey, but they concluded that BMW was impacted the most by % of sales. At least here in North America, over the years we have seen Tesla sales go up and BMW & Mercedes suffer. I'm wondering how much being an American car brand has to do with that.

"I’ve owned three BMW 3 Series and was a
diehard BMW fan. The Tesla blows those cars away."

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/market-evolution.html#intro


Prius was the #1 last car, so we have to tip the hat to Tesla for upselling Prius owners and making the auto market larger by $$$.

The loyalty to car brands or car types seems the age-old cruiser vs sport bikers, ect..

Full disclosure, I'm still a Chevy Volt owner

 

[TheRobSJ]

Bloomberg is redoing the 2019 Tesla owner survey, but they concluded that BMW was impacted the most by % of sales. At least here in North America, over the years we have seen Tesla sales go up and BMW & Mercedes suffer. I'm wondering how much being an American car brand has to do with that.

"I’ve owned three BMW 3 Series and was a
diehard BMW fan. The Tesla blows those cars away."

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/market-evolution.html#intro


Prius was the #1 last car, so we have to tip the hat to Tesla for upselling Prius owners and making the auto market larger by $$$.

The loyalty to car brands or car types seems the age-old cruiser vs sport bikers, ect..

Full disclosure, I'm still a Chevy Volt owner

In 2019, the only BMW EV offering was the funky looking i3 with awful range with not much more capability even with the “range extender” option. It’s a different ballgame today. So I’d be curious to see how the survey goes. Like I said, Tesla’s market share can only go one way.

 

[Killroy1999]

In 2019, the only BMW EV offering was the funky looking i3 with awful range with not much more capability even with the “range extender” option. It’s a different ballgame today. So I’d be curious to see how the survey goes. Like I said, Tesla’s market share can only go one way.

Tesla replaced mostly ICE BMWs.

I would hope that Tesla would lose EV market share. Tesla can't be the only EV out there. Yet, Tesla is going to continue to grow.

 

[TheRobSJ]

Tesla replaced mostly ICE BMWs.

I would hope that Tesla would lose EV market share. Tesla can't be the only EV out there. Yet, Tesla is going to continue to grow.

Tesla replaced ICE BMWs along with quite a few other ICE vehicles on that list because I believe (though is like to see some actual surveys of “hey what made you decide to go EV”) people were curious about getting an EV, and like I said you get the most range for the money with the Model 3/Y. And let’s face it, Tesla has a bit of FOMO going for it like having an iPhone.

But now there is a proper BMW EV that has decent range, doesn’t look ridiculous, and actually drives like a proper BMW, I’d love to know if Tesla has that much draw for someone today looking to go from an ICE car to EV. The BMW i4 does cost more and they’re not exactly easy to get, so it’s not going to sway a whole lot of people away from the Tesla, but it certainly has to taking a bite out of the numbers.

And Tesla definitely can’t be the only EV out there. Mostly why they haven’t updated/advanced a generation in their current platform. Hasn’t been a need to since no real competition. And they knew it. That’s why it’s been the same car for so long. Almost like a repeat of Model T (the old Ford), they barely even offer any colors for the car, 5-6 paint and only 2 interior. I swear a white (the only color that isn’t a $1000 or more “option”) Tesla is so common these days, I don’t even see them.

But their time is up and the market is changing rapidly here in 2023-24. And I seriously hope they’ve got a lot more up their sleeve than just new headlights and a couple other knick knacks to keep up with the rising competition. And for fucks sake Tesla learn how to paint and line panels up! Jesus. Some of you may think your individual Tesla maybe is built just fine, but from what I see I’d say their fit and finish is by far the worst in the entire industry. Like not even close.

 

[ScarySpikes]

I disagree on one point.


Basically all of BMWs line up, including their EVs, look ridiculous. They have gone too far with their beaver teeth grilles.

(seriously, I think Hyundai is a much bigger threat to Teslas EV dominance than BMW.)

 

[wazzuFreddo]

Tesla replaced ICE BMWs along with quite a few other ICE vehicles on that list because I believe (though is like to see some actual surveys of “hey what made you decide to go EV”) people were curious about getting an EV, and like I said you get the most range for the money with the Model 3/Y. And let’s face it, Tesla has a bit of FOMO going for it like having an iPhone.

But now there is a proper BMW EV that has decent range, doesn’t look ridiculous, and actually drives like a proper BMW, I’d love to know if Tesla has that much draw for someone today looking to go from an ICE car to EV. The BMW i4 does cost more and they’re not exactly easy to get, so it’s not going to sway a whole lot of people away from the Tesla, but it certainly has to taking a bite out of the numbers.

And Tesla definitely can’t be the only EV out there. Mostly why they haven’t updated/advanced a generation in their current platform. Hasn’t been a need to since no real competition. And they knew it. That’s why it’s been the same car for so long. Almost like a repeat of Model T (the old Ford), they barely even offer any colors for the car, 5-6 paint and only 2 interior. I swear a white (the only color that isn’t a $1000 or more “option”) Tesla is so common these days, I don’t even see them.

But their time is up and the market is changing rapidly here in 2023-24. And I seriously hope they’ve got a lot more up their sleeve than just new headlights and a couple other knick knacks to keep up with the rising competition. And for fucks sake Tesla learn how to paint and line panels up! Jesus. Some of you may think your individual Tesla maybe is built just fine, but from what I see I’d say their fit and finish is by far the worst in the entire industry. Like not even close.

What I like about the Tesla is it feels different than other cars. Sit in a Bolt and it feels like any other Chevy, same with the Mach E and the Lightning, another Ford. There isn't enough differentiation from the ICE lineups.

I simply find cars these days to be boring, dated, and not really geared towards buyers such as myself. I am in the market for something new and before test driving a Tesla every option seemed super boring and uninteresting. I was getting super frustrated with my search for a new car. Also, as stated before, every interaction with a car dealership is a gigantic pain in the ass.

Sure Tesla has its build quality issues but I am coming from a Range Rover that grenaded itself at 170k miles and currently drive a 20 year old F150 with 310k on the clock. A basic Model 3 is a huge step up.

 

[bojangle]

Oh I know very well where the old Volvo/Prius drivers have gone. The majority of oblivious and just bad drivers out there are now in Teslas.

I get it that the majority of drivers just view cars as transportation from A to B. They don’t need speed or flash. But I would imagine that a Tesla buyers isn’t a complete Luddite and does appreciate some bells and whistles. Tesla gives you a giant iPad with the ability to have the horn and speakers make fart noises or sound like an ice cream truck. Which once the novelty of that wears off after the first time you use it, means you’re stuck with a rather non luxurious experience. Other cars have things like highly adjustable massaging seats, crazy surround sound audio systems, and premium materials abound. All things you can appreciate say in day out on the commute grind.

Teslas have a premium sound system. It was build in house by sound system experts that had previously worked for top rated sound system companies. I have no complaints there.

No massaging seats, but they are very comfortable. Probably the best I've owned.

As far as poor interior quality, I read this a lot. I don't really agree. It may not be super fancy, but minimalism is the name of their game. I find some luxury interiors a little too busy for my taste. Also, don't really find it any worse than my 328i interior, sport line, with leather seats. It seems about the same quality to me. I rather like Tesla's exposed grain real wood on the dash compared to the black shiny stuff on my BMW.

Bloomberg is redoing the 2019 Tesla owner survey, but they concluded that BMW was impacted the most by % of sales. At least here in North America, over the years we have seen Tesla sales go up and BMW & Mercedes suffer. I'm wondering how much being an American car brand has to do with that.

"I’ve owned three BMW 3 Series and was a
diehard BMW fan. The Tesla blows those cars away."

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/market-evolution.html#intro


Prius was the #1 last car, so we have to tip the hat to Tesla for upselling Prius owners and making the auto market larger by $$$.

The loyalty to car brands or car types seems the age-old cruiser vs sport bikers, ect..

Full disclosure, I'm still a Chevy Volt owner

Yup. My last car (still owned) was BMW. At the time I bought it in 2013, I assumed I'd probably be buying another one for the next car. Things changed. I still really like BMW.

Tesla replaced ICE BMWs along with quite a few other ICE vehicles on that list because I believe (though is like to see some actual surveys of “hey what made you decide to go EV”) people were curious about getting an EV, and like I said you get the most range for the money with the Model 3/Y. And let’s face it, Tesla has a bit of FOMO going for it like having an iPhone.

But now there is a proper BMW EV that has decent range, doesn’t look ridiculous, and actually drives like a proper BMW, I’d love to know if Tesla has that much draw for someone today looking to go from an ICE car to EV. The BMW i4 does cost more and they’re not exactly easy to get, so it’s not going to sway a whole lot of people away from the Tesla, but it certainly has to taking a bite out of the numbers.

And Tesla definitely can’t be the only EV out there. Mostly why they haven’t updated/advanced a generation in their current platform. Hasn’t been a need to since no real competition. And they knew it. That’s why it’s been the same car for so long. Almost like a repeat of Model T (the old Ford), they barely even offer any colors for the car, 5-6 paint and only 2 interior. I swear a white (the only color that isn’t a $1000 or more “option”) Tesla is so common these days, I don’t even see them.

But their time is up and the market is changing rapidly here in 2023-24. And I seriously hope they’ve got a lot more up their sleeve than just new headlights and a couple other knick knacks to keep up with the rising competition. And for fucks sake Tesla learn how to paint and line panels up! Jesus. Some of you may think your individual Tesla maybe is built just fine, but from what I see I’d say their fit and finish is by far the worst in the entire industry. Like not even close.

I am really interested in the i4. But didn't really look into them for the reasons you listed...cost, range, unavailability, but also room (family of 4, had to sell the wife). Another factor that's probably going to be going away as likely all brands adopt Tesla charging, is the lack of a widespread, good, reliable nation wide charging network. For all those reasons I went with Tesla not BMW. But I'd love to test drive an i4. I bet it handles amazing.

I have a performance model Y. I'd say it handles well, but not quite to the level of BMW.

 

[AbsolutEnduser]

Sure Tesla has its build quality issues but I am coming from a Range Rover that grenaded itself at 170k miles and currently drive a 20 year old F150 with 310k on the clock. A basic Model 3 is a huge step up.

I was going to say that, but it looks like you've realized it yourself, with a bit of a delay in saying it.
That's why I was more like "meh" when I test drove a Tesla 3 a while back. I was more like "sure, it has good acceleration to the next Red Light... so what"* ... while simultaneously underwhelmed by the low interior quality of the door next to me. Because I was coming from nimble car and/or with better interiors for lower price... wtf) (as opposed to much bigger vehicles)

* In a bigger picture, intense acceleration is less useful in a daily commute if all is red lights... depends where one is.
but you might be exemplifying that people just care about not putting gas in the appliance and that's it. (hello, motorcycle forum)

p.s. I was test driving a Chevy at the same time. The Chevy felt exactly the same as the other electric car... but with less speed, and less aloofness. (With more fugliness on the outside, however whaT'S UP with you Chevy)

 

[Holeshot]

Many people who know the car business, including myself have had the same impression of Tesla for quite some time. And that is simply “great tech company, but a bad car company.”

Teslas move to delimit their charging network to other OEM's is a bit puzzling if they wanted to keep lock on Teslas best (auto) asset: their charge network. There's something else afoot with the multiple deals they've made and I'm thinking it's battery sales. We may see Tesla sell their auto division and focus on battery/ infrastructure going forward. This may be why we're also not seeing much new product in the pipeline. Who's the best buyer for the Tesla auto division? I'm thinking Fiat, Nissan (their brand cache sucks), Or Tata.

Teslas have a premium sound system. It was build in house by sound system experts that had previously worked for top rated sound system companies. I have no complaints there.

Check back @100K miles.