Tesla Model 3: End of the Internal-Combustion Engine?

[Holeshot]

....and were slow as all getup. It was shame, Sharky...

 

[Killroy1999]

I wonder how towing performance will affect range. These batteries hate heavy loads, it seems...

The laws of physics don't change between internal combustion engines and electric vehicles. Internal combustion engines and transmissions have poor efficiency at lower loads, so that is why fuel economy is not as variable as load is added.

Load and EV? Check out the Tesla Semi prototypes which is using " a bunch " of Model 3 Motors - the fancy kind that I mentioned before.

 

[NorCalAthlete]

I wonder how towing performance will affect range. These batteries hate heavy loads, it seems...

Musk’s tweet about 300k lb towing capacity seems orders of magnitude off to me. 30,000 I could see. But 300,000?

And yeah. Very curious to see what the range is with / without a load - if Musk even bothers to admit to the numbers with load.

If I had to guess, using the previously mentioned 500 mile range as a ballpark:

500 miles (ideal Max conditions) with no load
~475 miles (actual) for most with no load
~300 miles at freeway speeds with no load
~150 miles ideal conditions with max load
~100 miles actual conditions with max load.

*Numbers mostly pulled out of my ass based on seeing how range drops when using heavy acceleration and freeway driving in a model S.

 

[Holeshot]

Interesting thought; that range can increased when towing with accessory battery banks on the towable unit.

 

[Killroy1999]

Interesting thought; that range can increased when towing with accessory battery banks on the towable unit.

Yes, its been tried before with battery and genset trailers.

Here is the AC Propulsion Tzero Prototype that basically founded Tesla. More info on Wiki.

 

[295566]

Just a thought, would "trailers" have to be regulated by any kind of crash/impact/safety standards? Because carrying around a fuel cell behind you without any kind of impact protection sounds sketchy at best.

 

[TheRobSJ]

November 21st for Tesla Truck unveil.

More towing/load capacity than an F150 with performance matching a Porsche 911.

And it’s January 1 - December 31 of myself and most of the automotive industry not really giving a shit what new model Tesla rolls out anymore. It’s been long enough. As has been said many times already, they’re not a car company. Tech company with a great IP? Sure. But there’s no excuse for a real car company to have the volume that they do and still not string together some real quarters of profit. Investing back and then some into the business? Yeah sure. But all the other real car companies were able to scale up and still show investors that they’re making money and headed for a bright future.

Not just the OEMs that views Tesla as not a car company. But most of car culture too. I’m here at SEMA, the biggest car show in the world right now. Just about every company that has anything to do with the car business is here in Vegas. Well, not Tesla themselves of course, because they’re not a car company. But other than maybe wheels, WeatherTech floor mats, and waxes or whatever, none of the exhibitors here could five a shit about Tesla. None of the tool and equipment manufacturers want to get into anything Tesla specific products. Down the street at the AAPEX show (mostly parts), nobody is making aftermarket service/repair parts for Tesla. Oh, Tesla likes to maintain control so they don’t let anyone make par....please. Apple is another tech company that keeps it close to the vest, and the aftermarket for their products is a multi billion dollar business.

Sorry just ranting while I wait for the monorail. My opinions are my personal observations and in no way reflect the position of American Honda Motor Co.

 

[mrzuzzo]

And it’s January 1 - December 31 of myself and most of the automotive industry not really giving a shit what new model Tesla rolls out anymore. It’s been long enough. As has been said many times already, they’re not a car company. Tech company with a great IP? Sure. But there’s no excuse for a real car company to have the volume that they do and still not string together some real quarters of profit. Investing back and then some into the business? Yeah sure. But all the other real car companies were able to scale up and still show investors that they’re making money and headed for a bright future.

Not just the OEMs that views Tesla as not a car company. But most of car culture too. I’m here at SEMA, the biggest car show in the world right now. Just about every company that has anything to do with the car business is here in Vegas. Well, not Tesla themselves of course, because they’re not a car company. But other than maybe wheels, WeatherTech floor mats, and waxes or whatever, none of the exhibitors here could five a shit about Tesla. None of the tool and equipment manufacturers want to get into anything Tesla specific products. Down the street at the AAPEX show (mostly parts), nobody is making aftermarket service/repair parts for Tesla. Oh, Tesla likes to maintain control so they don’t let anyone make par....please. Apple is another tech company that keeps it close to the vest, and the aftermarket for their products is a multi billion dollar business.

Sorry just ranting while I wait for the monorail. My opinions are my personal observations and in no way reflect the position of American Honda Motor Co.

Agree with you on most points. Fuck Tesla the company and their policies.

But there's no denying they are a disruptor, and they're only getting started.

I think the auto industry definitely cares. All the manufacturers are announcing electrification plans and trying hard to take shots at Tesla.

Tesla doesn't care about the traditional car industry as a whole, so no surprise they aren't there. They are leaders, not followers.

 

[byke]

Musk’s tweet about 300k lb towing capacity seems orders of magnitude off to me. 30,000 I could see. But 300,000?

They'd be outlawed in Arizona in the summer, leaving mud ruts in the asphalt down the highway.

 

[295566]

Agree with you on most points. Fuck Tesla the company and their policies.

But there's no denying they are a disruptor, and they're only getting started.

I think the auto industry definitely cares. All the manufacturers are announcing electrification plans and trying hard to take shots at Tesla.

Tesla doesn't care about the traditional car industry as a whole, so no surprise they aren't there. They are leaders, not followers.

Leaders who aren't profitable. That's a pretty bad trend to set.

 

[mrzuzzo]

Leaders who aren't profitable. That's a pretty bad trend to set.

Both their last quarters were profitable, and they are also ramping hard and sitting on a bunch of unrecognized revenue as well.

 

[295566]

Both their last quarters were profitable

Debatable, as both were due to mass layoffs to boost numbers.

they are also ramping hard and sitting on a bunch of unrecognized revenue as well.

"winter is coming"

 

[Climber]

Leaders who aren't profitable. That's a pretty bad trend to set.

There is a lot of cost in ramping up production and designs. Costs that will be recovered, long term, if sales growth continues.

I'm not sure why so many people believe that their lack of profits, at this stage, signal that they're going to fail. It costs $$$$ to come up with new designs and $$$$$$$ to design, build and work out the kinks in new factories. You simply can't be profitable while doing those two activities. But, once set up, those expenditures drop off significantly and the equation changes, at least for those parts of the company.

I know that Tesla is continuing to design and expand their manufacturing, so not currently being profitable is not surprising and expecting them to not be profitable in the future is simply not a reasonable or sound business perspective.

Just my

 

[TheRobSJ]

Agree with you on most points. Fuck Tesla the company and their policies.

But there's no denying they are a disruptor, and they're only getting started.

I think the auto industry definitely cares. All the manufacturers are announcing electrification plans and trying hard to take shots at Tesla.

Tesla doesn't care about the traditional car industry as a whole, so no surprise they aren't there. They are leaders, not followers.

Their market cap compared to the rest of the manufacturers, to an outsider, would have you believe they have a big seat at the table. But their market share is really just a drop in the bucket. And until they aren’t just a very thin slice of the pie (which many think they’ll never get there before they go under or get overpaid for and bought by someone else), the manufacturers really don’t see them as a threat

Disruptive? Trendsetting? Absolutely. Other companies have watched to see just what makes them sell better than their EV offerings. I mean, it’s not like it’s a great mystery. 200+ mile range in a body that doesn’t look it’s trying to be George Jetson’s car. It’s really not that hard to figure out. Question is, now that they know the formula, do they really want to go “all in” with big R&D budgets and so on? They all saw a big player, GM, pretty much spin their wheels and not get much out of the Voltec platform after a massive investment. So companies like Honda and Toyota are playing it very conservative with their approach to getting in the EV game. Others have finally decided to push the stack of chips in the middle like VAG. And I swear, if Tesla is not ready for it by some frantic attempt to stay relevant with yet another new gimmick of Autopilot or some pickup that only gets used to take 96 packs of asswipe home from Costco? This will not be a case of David besting Goliath. VAG will make Tesla nothing more than an answer to a Trivial Pursuit question in less than half a dozen years.

 

[TheRobSJ]

There is a lot of cost in ramping up production and designs. Costs that will be recovered, long term, if sales growth continues.

I'm not sure why so many people believe that their lack of profits, at this stage, signal that they're going to fail. It costs $$$$ to come up with new designs and $$$$$$$ to design, build and work out the kinks in new factories. You simply can't be profitable while doing those two activities. But, once set up, those expenditures drop off significantly and the equation changes, at least for those parts of the company.

I know that Tesla is continuing to design and expand their manufacturing, so not currently being profitable is not surprising and expecting them to not be profitable in the future is simply not a reasonable or sound business perspective.

Just my

But it’s not like Tesla is a new company. They’ve been around like 15 years. It was stated that the low volume expensive cars would be sold at a loss. But they would pave the way for the high volume, lower cost, mass market car. Well it’s here. It’s been here for a couple years now. Still not really making money.

So what the hell did all that Roadster/Model S/Model X pay for then?

In some absurd business model where the high feature, expensive product is the loss leader, they’re supposed to get profitable by selling a shitload of the cheaper product? Ok, well if the Tesla proponents are to believed, the Model 3 is a huge sales success. So the volume is there. But still no profits.

Oh we’re building a gajillion dollar factory in China. Once that’s done and we’re selling cars in China, then the money will be rolling in! You’ll see. M’kay. How many times are investors willing to keep chasing the carrot they keep moving further out in front of them?

 

[Holeshot]

There is a lot of cost in ramping up production and designs. Costs that will be recovered, long term, if sales growth continues.

Tesla isn't just production; it's a patent mill at the same time. The IP the generate is giving a boost to their asset class holdings.

Question is, now that they know the formula, do they really want to go “all in” with big R&D budgets and so on? They all saw a big player, GM, pretty much spin their wheels and not get much out of the Voltec platform after a massive investment. So companies like Honda and Toyota are playing it very conservative with their approach to getting in the EV game.

GM is all-in for the near future as are a few others of the big ones. Given the cost advantage (as high as 30%) of all-electric powertrains, I believe the manufacturers would love to go all-electric, but they have to do so while maintaining their loyal customers who have been ICE drivers for decades. I have ideas on how to do this, but they don't seem to match what the OEM's are aiming to do. In the meantime, Tesla is the equivalent of sitting in the end zone waiting for the oldies to show up for the game. They have a tremendous advantage having developed the tech for the future and already being, the future.

However, Tesla's production levels are fairly said, horrible. QC is constantly yo-yo'ing, production levels missed, parts pipeline; nonexistent, and customer service reported as shitty. I believe Tesla is ripe for a merger or acquisition. This is why I believe Musk cares so much about stock price, even to the point of knowingly violating SEC rules: he fears a takeover/ buyout. There are a few players that would be well suited for a Tesla merger/ takeover: Tata and/ or Fiat. They certainly could join together and do so as well. Tata is a low cost lead producer and Fiat is one of the most efficient producers in the world. Neither has a solid EV platform/ program going that can keep up with the other big OEM's...

 

[easter bunny]

Tesla is the equivalent of sitting in the end zone waiting for the oldies to show up for the game. They have a tremendous advantage having developed the tech for the future and already being, the future.

Tesla is playing flag football. Meanwhile the 1965 Packers are putting on their gear in the locker room and going over the playbook. GMs supercruise is probably every bit as good as Tesla's autopilot but they're not willing to get sued into the stone age by beta testing it on the public.

There are a few players that would be well suited for a Tesla merger/ takeover: Tata and/ or Fiat. T

You misspelled Geely.

 

[250mL]

So what the hell did all that Roadster/Model S/Model X pay for then?

1,636 Supercharger stations with 14,497 Superchargers
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

vs.

As part of VAG's $2 Billion settlement:
So far only 332 stations with 1,500 chargers
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger

 

[Holeshot]

EasterB: I just don't think Geely is looking to an acquisition...

 

[Eldritch]

Tesla isn't just production; it's a patent mill at the same time. The IP the generate is giving a boost to their asset class holdings.



GM is all-in for the near future as are a few others of the big ones. Given the cost advantage (as high as 30%) of all-electric powertrains, I believe the manufacturers would love to go all-electric, but they have to do so while maintaining their loyal customers who have been ICE drivers for decades. I have ideas on how to do this, but they don't seem to match what the OEM's are aiming to do. In the meantime, Tesla is the equivalent of sitting in the end zone waiting for the oldies to show up for the game. They have a tremendous advantage having developed the tech for the future and already being, the future.

However, Tesla's production levels are fairly said, horrible. QC is constantly yo-yo'ing, production levels missed, parts pipeline; nonexistent, and customer service reported as shitty. I believe Tesla is ripe for a merger or acquisition. This is why I believe Musk cares so much about stock price, even to the point of knowingly violating SEC rules: he fears a takeover/ buyout. There are a few players that would be well suited for a Tesla merger/ takeover: Tata and/ or Fiat. They certainly could join together and do so as well. Tata is a low cost lead producer and Fiat is one of the most efficient producers in the world. Neither has a solid EV platform/ program going that can keep up with the other big OEM's...

Fiat is the bestest. I love mine so much.